Superluminal speed

[LupusExMachina]

I think a lot of people here are interested in tech, so this might be interesting for some.

After the likely discovery of the higgs field at CERN, I had the slight hope of the opening opportunity of faster than light travel, only to be disappointed after a pretty short look at relativity, as this poses no way around the light speed barrier. It could open some opportunities to get closer to c with less energy consumption, but that is purely speculative.

In the course of research into the subject I stumbled upon something different and a lot more interesting.

The concept of the alcubierre warp-drive had some pretty major overhauls in the past month, after stagnating for about a decade, bringing its classification from impractical (The first version used up to one billion times the mass energy of the entire universe) up to plausible (Current estimation of mass energy usage is somewhere between a couple of milligrams and a metric tonne).

So, the concept and theory of a warp drive has reached a state that caused nasa to begin the process of testing on spacetime manipulation this very month.

Ladies and Gentlemen... warp bubble construction just made it into the lab.

Welcome to the future

Edit: Yes, some links might be interesting :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive - this one is pretty obvious
http://100yss.org/ - the NASA/DARPA funded initiative
http://members.shaw.ca/mike.anderton/WarpDrive.pdf - the original paper from alcubierre

The wikipedia article provides some more places with puzzle pieces leading to the current state of the project

[Gormador]

Do you have any link so that we can get more precise infos (as you did) ?

[LupusExMachina]

I provided some links with general information and the public presence of the project.

[Donzaffi]

I am very interested in this kind of science, but I want to ask you a question. Why should we travel faster than light, with witch goal ?

And remeber please the relativity theorie is just a theorie ;) (no exact proof)

[LupusExMachina]

Well, there is a pretty obvious goal, or billions, just look up and you see them at night.
As more concrete goal it is acess to space and ressources as well as research opportunities on the practical side.

And as a little addition: Why not?

As for the theory of relativity... that thing is pretty proven in a sense that it passed a multitude of tests and predicted events and facts only observed decades after first postulation.

The alcubierre drive is also based on it, providing a valid solution to the equations.
In principal, it is a workaround, pretty similar to the sci-fi approach from star trek.

The exakt benefits it might bring are up to speculation.
You could apply the question of why to the whole space program in general and only now we know which benefits it brought after all.
Amongst these are sattelites in general. Advanced weather prediction, high temperature resistant materials, GPS, communication to remote locations, advanced ressource prospection and a lot more. Probably too much to count them by now.
And those advances in turn opened up even more possibilitues.

You can never say in advance what the final benefits will be.

[Graphite]

To have a slim chance to explore a bit more than the 0.000000000001% (probably not enough zeroes) corner we occupy now?

What amuses me is that the discovery that lowered the energy requirements mentioned that a donut-shape would be a lot more effective... you know... the one they always show on star trek whenever they talk about warp-bubbles :P

[abzu93]

I am very interested in this kind of science, but I want to ask you a question. Why should we travel faster than light, with witch goal ?

And remeber please the relativity theorie is just a theorie ;) (no exact proof)

I'm afraid you are mistaking the word "theory" in general colloquial usage with the word "theory" in scientific usage. The word as used colloquially means "a guess" and is more akin to a postulate or hypothesis than a scientific theory.

A scientific theory is an overall explanation of how a group of natural facts interact, and can be supported by a vast body of evidence. What makes scientific theories useful it allows certain natural behaviors to be predictable, and that is monumentally important to utilizing this knowledge.

The theory of relatively, if just a guess is a damned good guess because it is what the technology that is allowing you to communicate to me, and the device you are using to do it, is based upon.

Educate yourself about the sciences. It's totally worth it ;)

Edit: grammar

[Dwarg91]

Ninjas; faster than the speed of light when they need to be.

On topic, this is a very cool bit of research that will have vast implications as to how we will do space travel.

[LupusExMachina]

Actually, it is a guess and yes, it is a pretty good one.
It's just nowhere near completion.
It is true the mode of communication we use utilizes relativity to a certain extend, but it is actually minor by now.
The major part of computer and communication technology relies on quantum effects at the current state and relativity fails utterly at these scales.

But as our knowledge of relativity as well as quantum effects has been proven (I use that pretty loose on the quantum side) both must be true to an extend, but also both are mutually exclusive which leads to the conclusion that both must be incomplete and aspects of a bigger underlying set of rules, which in turn might also just be the mask of something bigger. Though that part is purely speculative.

String theory is the best guess on the underlying set of rules by now, but it isn't really something I like to take as granted, as the string theory has an infinite number of solutions, relativity and quantum effects just being two of those.

But anyway... it's going a bit far now XD

[abzu93]

Actually, it is a guess and yes, it is a pretty good one.

That's the wonderful thing about science. All theories are subject to revision when better data avails itself; as I hope this NASA experiment yields -- or doesn't.

[LupusExMachina]

That's the beauty about the concept of the drive. It doesn't touch the credibility of relativity, no change needed, even in the event of a success.
It's about moving and warping the space around a potential craft, not the craft itself, so relativity isn't compromised.

[BinoAl]

Of course, reading into it a bit more, it seems to mention that we still need exotic matter than can travel faster than light for this to be possible. Damn, and I was so excited. Lol

[FlowerChild]

I am very interested in this kind of science, but I want to ask you a question. Why should we travel faster than light, with witch goal ?

IMO: the preservation of the species.

A friend of mine works in space exploration. Our main topic of discussion whenever we get together is whether or not the human race will wipe itself out before we get off the planet. We can debate for hours on that topic. I think we won't, he thinks we *might*, which is why he is motivated to do the work that he does and decided to devote his life to it.

The current scenario is basically akin to this: imagine humanity exists as a single small tribe, and its technology level is at the club stage.

All it takes is for a single member of that tribe to go ape-shit and club people in their sleep for the entire species to die off. Over an extended period of time, the odds of that happening eventually become 100%.

However, if you have a bunch of tribes of humans scattered over a large area, the situation changes radically. One such isolated incident will wipe out a tribe, but the species will keep on ticking.

With our current level of technology, we're rapidly approaching the point where basically any one of us will be able to wipe out life on the planet through our own actions. At a certain level of technology, and with a certain population density, our life expectancy as a species thus drops off to nothing.

So, as I like to debate with my friend: will we manage to get off the planet and spread out into separate tribes before some maniac clubs us all in our sleep?

[LupusExMachina]

Of course, reading into it a bit more, it seems to mention that we still need exotic matter than can travel faster than light for this to be possible. Damn, and I was so excited. Lol

Even though it says exotic matter, the basis of what is needed is a portion of space having a negative energy value. Having matter with a negative mass would achieve that, as the space occupied by that matter would have a negative energy value.

In practice this effect is already achievable via something called the casimir effect. It's a special arrangement of really really tiny plates, lowering the energy value of the portion of space between them under zero.
I always wondered for what that could be used... guess there is the answer.

NASA deciding to take the concept to the lab had all those definite roadblocks rules out beforehand. It's not guaranteed that it will work, but the chance is actually there.

@FC:
You must be a fan of dune then. What you described reminds me a lot of the golden path. If you havn't read it by now and call a somewhat masochistic personality your own, I would suggest you give it a try. Maybe you could even enjoy it. I personally couldn't bring myself to read it as a whole, but the concepts are pretty interesting.

[FlowerChild]

@FC:
You must be a fan of dune then. What you described reminds me a lot of the golden path. If you havn't read it by now and call a somewhat masochistic personality your own, I would suggest you give it a try. Maybe you could even enjoy it. I personally couldn't bring myself to read it as a whole, but the concepts are pretty interesting.

I read the whole series when I was much younger, and yes, it did get rather masochistic at points and really started to drag. The last book (Chapterhouse) was pretty damn good though, but I wouldn't recommend investing the time necessary to get to that point ;)

I don't recall that concept being part of Dune, but I clearly remember the first time I heard about it. It was an interview on PBS where the former head of research from IBM was basically warning that if we didn't slow down technological progress, we were all going to die.

Such a doomsday prophecy from an obviously intelligent individual caused my ears to perk up, and after thinking about it for a long time, I came to the conclusion that he was absolutely right.

It's actually a fairly common (not the majority though) view amongst the scientifically minded. I've run into a number of folks that are of the same opinion over the years.

I don't think it's in any way possible to get humanity to slow down though, so I personally view space exploration as being one of the few viable "escape hatches" from this scenario.

[FlowerChild]

Oh wait! I think I do remember! Keep in mind this was 25 years ago, and I was probably still to young to fully process most of it ;)

That was the whole deal with the Butlerian Jihad, the outlawing of computers, and the creation of Mentats and Navigators, correct? Basically, their own technology almost wiped them out.

Yeah, I remember thinking back then that it was a really cool concept, but I think I was still too young to process the philosophical ramifications, apply it to what was happening to us, and still too obsessed with technology to seriously consider such a thing :)

[Ozziie]

I don't think it's in any way possible to get humanity to slow down though, so I personally view space exploration as being one of the few viable "escape hatches" from this scenario.

Would this theory not simply extend to being able to wipe out space colonies providing technology progressed to the point where this would be possible? I don't think there is conceivable solution at all...

Reminds me of the film WarGames :)

EDIT: To clarify - I mean the ability to wipe out ALL colonies that exist in space rather than either space itself or just single space colonies at a time.

[FlowerChild]

Would this theory not simply extend to being able to wipe out space colonies providing technology progressed to the point where this would be possible? I don't think there is conceivable solution at all...

Any solution is temporary of course, just like it always has been. Eventually, and theoretically, the potentially destructive tech would once again threaten to catch up to the degree to which we've spread out.

Just like any question of survival, any solutions found are just a means of delaying the problem. That certainly doesn't mean we should stop eating due to its long-term futility.

IMO, the problem right now though is that we're on the verge of our technology catching up to our ability to expand into new territory. In practical terms, we're basically stuck on this planet with nowhere to run to, with ever increasing population density, and ever more destructive technology. Eventually, the wheels are going to fall off, despite how none of us really likes to think about it as a serious possibility.

[abzu93]

Just like any question of survival, any solutions found are just a means of delaying the problem. That certainly doesn't mean we should stop eating due to its long-term futility. <snip> Eventually, the wheels are going to fall off, despite how none of us really likes to think about it as a serious possibility.

The survivability of our species is eventually going to decrease to zero, whether that's in a ten years, or a few million, a hundred million, or few billion years. Whether it's us to ourselves, lack of resources, a wayward asteroid, gamma ray exposure from a black hole pointed our way, the sun burning out, the collision with Andromeda ... etc., etc., etc.

Regardless, I agree with you. It doesn't mean we should ever stop trying.

[Ozziie]

That certainly doesn't mean we should stop eating due to its long-term futility.

This also opens up the debate about the meaning of life and what our purpose is. May not even get started on that one, purely to avoid religion cropping up.

Any solution is temporary of course, just like it always has been. Eventually, and theoretically, the potentially destructive tech would once again threaten to catch up to the degree to which we've spread out.

It's a weird concept that we are searching for a solution to save ourselves from ourselves, even though our current generation will not see or benefit directly from the outcome.

I sometimes find it weird that we are able to discuss the concept of this kind of thing. The concept of time, time-travel, the speed of light etc. Interesting stuff.

It doesn't mean we should ever stop trying.

+1

[FlowerChild]

It doesn't mean we should ever stop trying.

Right, which is why I brought this up in the context of why space exploration is potentially useful in a rather significant way that we can hopefully all relate to. Sorting our trash into separate bins is only going to accomplish so much, and if people won't even acknowledge the problems we face, the chances of us resolving them drops significantly.

I'm rather looking forward to my next encounter with the friend I mentioned if there's anything to this FTL business. It gives some potentially heavy backup to his side of the debate, and might even result in me displaying some uncharacteristic optimism :)

My general policy is to just live my life, and hope that I get to live it fully before the whole ball goes up in flames. However, if something like this turns out to be credible (which unfortunately most such stories turn out not to be), it may serve to radically alter my world-view.

[Azdoine]

I think most of us are aware on some level that humanity is going to die at its own hand, but we choose not to think about it.

It's even scarier in my eyes, because I know that all we are or were will be gone, we're nothing close to indelible.

Our modern media and records are cheap to produce, but rot away extremely quickly. If some form of inelligent life comes after us on planet earth, they probably wouldn't even know we were ever here at all.

[Itamarcu]

It's even scarier in my eyes, because I know that all we are or were will be gone, we're nothing close to indelible.

Our modern media and records are cheap to produce, but rot away extremely quickly. If some form of intelligent life comes after us on planet earth, they probably wouldn't even know we were ever here at all.

I disagree with you. More than 99% of the things we produce "rots away" quickly, that's true, but human kind still left a lot of signs of intelligent life around it - Space waste, underground/underwater structures, and even the fact almost all of the other large species are close to or already have been extinct because of us.

[Azdoine]

In the time it took for a new species to evolve, all of that would be gone except for the space waste-
Unless there was a helping hand in the process, like radiation.

[Dreambolt]

There would certainty be signs left, but yes our knowledge would be lost in pretty much it's entirety, but a human level intelligence would figure out that so weird mass extinction event occurred.

But real faster than light travel would be amazing, lets hope we figure it out sooner rather than later.