Better Than Release?

[Itamarcu]

Will you change anything in the cauldron, for the potions?
For instance, you could have a cauldron auto-fill potions or something.

[Zhil]

Well, I think the above rather accurately represents what I'm thinking, but I wouldn't generate XP directly out of Soul Urns. There would be a different variety of Urn (or whatever object) that would contain the "fresh" souls of slain enemies. We could assume that the souls of the nether have already been consumed or otherwise processed by the ender dragon and can not be swallowed by Steve in that form. Maybe the Nether itself is a giant "soul stomach" or "soul anus" for the dragon.

Yeah, the nether being where the End dragon stores his soul collection sounds like a fun addition.

And I agree on keeping Soul urns/Fresh soul urns separate, but I think there should be some glue there to tie them in together. I see an overarching future for more soul mechanisms, where soul collection becomes the new hemp, the start of a soul tech tree. I'm pretty sure the companion cube fits in there somewhere too.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, the nether being where the End dragon stores his soul collection sounds like a fun addition.

Well, at present, I think I'm leaning towards Netherrack and such basically being "soul shit". In other words, it's the leftovers after souls have been devoured and all the yummy power-inducing goodness has been extracted. They're no longer consumable, but can be used as a material for making other things.

[Runesmith]

I can't say that I agree with the discontent with the method of reaching The End. As it stands, one needs three things in order to access that dimension:

1- Access to a Stronghold.
Since they're rather rare, this promotes exploration, and I don't think anyone disagrees with this concept.

2- Access to the Nether.
BTW has already made the Nether out to be a place worth going for resources, and this, again, promotes exploration since Blazes spawn most regularly in Netherholds.

3- Twelve Ender Pearls.
I'll admit that manually killing mobs is as boring as watching grass grow, but 12 pearls really isn't that much. By the time one finds a Stronghold through exploring, chances are one has easily accumulated the pearls and converted them into eyes by just casually collecting them. Seriously, I usually collect one or two by just walking around outside during/after a rainstorm.

I have no contentions against all of the other arguments, and The End and its Dragon are extremely lacking, but I think the issue of entering this dimension lies not in the method of doing so, but the lack of content/reward for accomplishing it.

[Mason11987]

Just my opinion, I'm not a huge fan of the "ending aspect". I would be perfectly comfortable if you left it as is and focused on the other things you mentioned in the OP. I have no intention of "winning" minecraft, and if we lose/delay awesome BTW features so you can spend a lot of time replacing the end boss, I think it would be unfortunate.

[The great randomo]

Well, at present, I think I'm leaning towards Netherrack and such basically being "soul shit". In other words, it's the leftovers after souls have been devoured and all the yummy power-inducing goodness has been extracted. They're no longer consumable, but can be used as a material for making other things.

There was only one block that was added to the end (other than enderdragon healers), and that was end stone. I think it makes sense that, because it is the realm of the dragon, the only other collector of souls, the rock there is rich with souls of those who have opposed him or he has killed before. Maybe if netherack was this "soul shit", then end stone could be still to be eaten.

[Runesmith]

Gilberreke and Mason11987 both bring up a good point. The End, being as empty as it is, is likely too big an issue to tackle right now.

Waiting it out to see what changes Mojang makes to it post release seems like the best approach.

The issues of how to automate XP collection for enchanting and integrate potions into the BTW tech tree are more interesting anyway, since they're already substantial features to go on.

[misterwuggles]

I agree with a certain sentiment that you expressed earlier: I do very much think that BTW will mesh with the new magical features SIGNIFICANTLY better than the other tech mods. I especially like the idea of a multi-step mechanically powered process to extract/compress/grind souls/experience into an ingredient that can be used in some sort of experience potion. Fits in with BTW, makes use of Brewing, and leads to Enchanting. Pretty much hitting all the bases right there alone. I'm sure there are a ton of other things that can/will be done that'll feel like a great marriage between vanilla and BTW. No idea what to do with the End yet though. Kind of tough since as it stands it's just a glorified boss room rather than an actual realm.

One thing I'd like to add is that I'm hoping Soul Sand will be one of the integral parts of whatever process is used to get experience. There's a ton of Netherrack flying around, but you only really need one Soul Sand to get everything done.


1- Access to a Stronghold.
Since they're rather rare, this promotes exploration, and I don't think anyone disagrees with this concept.

I wouldn't say they promote exploration very well anymore unfortunately. You can now use an Eye of Ender to locate the closest Stronghold, so they're more of a reason to go out and grind yourself some Ender Pearls than it is to blindly dig.

[Brethern]

I'm with mason in that I don't want to see BTW focus on the end. However I'd like to see a few poisons added for weapons.

[Runesmith]

I wouldn't say they promote exploration very well anymore unfortunately. You can now use an Eye of Ender to locate the closest Stronghold, so they're more of a reason to go out and grind yourself some Ender Pearls than it is to blindly dig.

Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't realized that Ender Pearls (or was it the eyes) acted as a Stronghold compass. I'm not sure how easily this function is to use, so it may not speed up the Stronghold finding process very much beyond giving a vague direction.

Push comes to shove, reaching The End still wouldn't be that much of a chore after accessing the Nether. As I said, I think the issue with the dimension is that there is so little reason to go there, even if Endstone had a function as a resource.

[FlowerChild]

Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't realized that Ender Pearls (or was it the eyes) acted as a Stronghold compass. I'm not sure how easily this function is to use, so it may not speed up the Stronghold finding process very much beyond giving a vague direction.

Push comes to shove, reaching The End still wouldn't be that much of a chore after accessing the Nether. As I said, I think the issue with the dimension is that there is so little reason to go there, even if Endstone had a function as a resource.

Given the frequency with which you say you collect ender pearls, and the above, I don't think you've been playing RC2. Endermen are much rarer then they used to be. You don't just find them milling about, and significant hunting is required to collect enough ender pearls to reach the end.

[Runesmith]

I'll admit, I've been sticking to 1.8.1.

If they are indeed that rare and require that much deliberate searching for them, then I can understand the desire to create an alternative method of reaching The End.

But then one should pose the question: should one even focus on solving that problem when The End is so disappointing now anyway?

One would need a sizable overhaul of that dimension just to justify implementing an alternative entry.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to antagonize you; The End is like the Nether 2.0. There's been plenty of content added to lead up to the dimension, which almost begs for it to be useful in some way, but right now it just doesn't leave alot to work with.

Like Gilberreke said, The End should probably be put on the back-burner for now. I'm sorry if I've deviated so far from the original discussion.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I'd like to discuss what can be done to help improve the whole end sequence and lead up to it, not really whether I should.

Obviously anything I choose to do will be balanced with how much work is involved, and what else I could be spending the time on. That's a given seeing as how it's always been central to my design philosophy.

So far, the ideas I'm focusing on much are related to how the gaining of XP can relate to mod functionality. There's really nothing here about redoing the whole boss battle or whatever.

[Thieme]

I must say i really really like this discussion i just hate grinding mobs just to get lvl 50 and then still get a crappy enchant because it is random.
Also something that just popped into my mind is that enchantments are a bit shortlived atm, depending on how fast we can get xp with this new method you are looking in to. You could maybe also look at a way to transfer enchant or parts of it onto another weapon by repairing. But i don't know if that is easy to implement.

To illustrate: you have 1 diamond pickaxe with fortune 3 that is nearly broken and 1 unenchanted diamond pickaxe. Repairing one with another at this moment just deletes the enchant while to me it seems it would make more sense to have the repaired pickaxe have fortune 2.
So that everytime you repair it removes 1 level.

If you consider this doesn't really fit in to the current discussion i apologize for putting this into here like this.

[FlowerChild]

I must say i really really like this discussion i just hate grinding mobs just to get lvl 50 and then still get a crappy enchant because it is random.
Also something that just popped into my mind is that enchantments are a bit shortlived atm, depending on how fast we can get xp with this new method you are looking in to. You could maybe also look at a way to transfer enchant or parts of it onto another weapon by repairing. But i don't know if that is easy to implement.

To illustrate: you have 1 diamond pickaxe with fortune 3 that is nearly broken and 1 unenchanted diamond pickaxe. Repairing one with another at this moment just deletes the enchant while to me it seems it would make more sense to have the repaired pickaxe have fortune 2.
So that everytime you repair it removes 1 level.

If you consider this doesn't really fit in to the current discussion i apologize for putting this into here like this.

No, it's fine, I think it definitely does.

However, I think this problem will largely be solved by allowing the enchantment of the steel tools and armor. The Battle Axe might get a bit tricky in that regard (given it's both a tool and a weapon), but yeah, given their durability, you'll be able to retain an enchantment for much longer.

[Itamarcu]

Wait - repairing something doesn't retain the enchantment?
So why the hell would I repair anything?

[FlowerChild]

Wait - repairing something doesn't retain the enchantment?
So why the hell would I repair anything?

Because you also lose the item if you let its damage completely wear down, not just the enchantment.

With repair you at least get to salvage some of the diamonds you have invested in your tools, for example. It can also be used to clear an unwanted enchantment (like knock-back, which I really don't like).

I'm personally having a rough time finding diamonds in the newer releases (still not sure what exactly has changed, if anything), so I used the repair feature several times during my play-through.

[Itamarcu]

Ummm....
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Item_Repair

How is that saving materials?

It only wastes two sticks. the durability stays the same, and since you need another tool, it's not really useful.
I would have used it if I only needed to add iron\diamonds to fix the tool.

[FlowerChild]

How is that saving materials?

Quoting directly from your link:

The resulting item will have slightly more uses left than the two original items.

That's how.

[Itamarcu]

Whoops, I just failed to read a link before posting it...

Now I get it. Still, melting tools in the crucible probably will conflict with that.

[FlowerChild]

Whoops, I just failed to read a link before posting it...

Now I get it. Still, melting tools in the crucible probably will conflict with that.

No, it just opens up a more efficient means of repairing metal tools later in the tech-tree. I doubt I'll change anything about it.

[OneTripleZero]

In terms of making XP an industrialized pursuit, how about looking at the planters? Perhaps you could use a potion made from Nether-based material, combine it with say Soul Sand, and then use it in a planter in place of the dirt block to enable the growth of a kind of corrupted plant that can be harvested for low amounts of XP? Perhaps it only grows in absolute darkness, or grows exceedingly slowly, or has to be re-watered with the soul juice from time to time? Or just used as a component in XP potions? The plant could be used to make advanced bookshelves as well, which would reduce the amount of shelves you'd have to surround an enchanting table with?

Other than that I really love the idea posted earlier about the soul collector which breaks when full. Rather than having it explode into XP orbs though, maybe a full 'collector' (whatever it ends up being) has to be broken down and crafted into XP potions or food, or perhaps used as bricks to make an End Gate instead of needing to find a stronghold? I think the progression into using souls as currency in an arms race against another collector is a great direction to head in. It gives everything a solid purpose, as well as explains why Steve is the only "human" around, even if he is descending into subhuman depravity while he advances.

[Gdnite]

Just thinking ahead a little bit, depending how you implement souls they could very well end up being a multi-player currency. For Example:
"Does any one have some iron, I'll give you 100 souls a piece."
So it ends up people are selling their souls for items =D Just found that kinda funny.

[Zhil]

In terms of making XP an industrialized pursuit, how about looking at the planters? Perhaps you could use a potion made from Nether-based material, combine it with say Soul Sand, and then use it in a planter in place of the dirt block to enable the growth of a kind of corrupted plant that can be harvested for low amounts of XP? Perhaps it only grows in absolute darkness, or grows exceedingly slowly, or has to be re-watered with the soul juice from time to time? Or just used as a component in XP potions? The plant could be used to make advanced bookshelves as well, which would reduce the amount of shelves you'd have to surround an enchanting table with?

I don't particularly like this idea, but growing Piranha Plants from mario in a planter made me giggle. Or maybe some sort of oozing monstrosity of nature.

[OneTripleZero]

...but growing Piranha Plants from mario in a planter made me giggle.

Ha, when you put it that way it is a ridiculous visual :) But where's the emphasis in that statement? Do you mean growing Piranha Plants from the Mario Brothers Series in a planter, or growing Piranha Plants from Mario's rotting corpse in a planter? So much is lost in text :)

What I'm really getting at is moving the XP implementation away from grinding monsters, and keeping it renewable without being overpowered. Having some form of engineered hellplant leech souls from the ground is just one of probably many possible ways of doing that.