BTW: Design Philosophy

[diegokilla]

WOW! Really enjoyed your post Haniale! Was very in-depth and relatively easy to understand. I really love the idea of an "Age of Water"... It just makes sense. I imagine it is a bit far-fetched to see it in BTW, but maybe one day.

[Rasuth]

Hi there.

I want to start my post by saying, I only found out about BTW 1 or 2 weeks ago and have spent more time waiting for compatible updates than actually playing the mod. However I'm pretty amazed by Flower's take on advancing vM. And I'm planning to play a BTW world 100% legit.

As much as it is fun to speculate about future features let me get back on the general "Ages", technological advancement and "goal of the game" discussion.
BTW succeeded to expand on the "punch trees until you get Diamonds then start over" style of play that was vM by giving us some basic tools that can be used to build amazing contraptions. Be it a simple "flush my farm Button" or an automated Mob spawner, transporter, killer, Item collector, transporter, sorter, storer device. People have built this kind of things with vM before but BTW gave us the tools to refine the design and give them a more mechanical feel.
Nevertheless we're still doing the same thing. (Thanks to Flower for keeping the overall feel of vM alive) But the art and challenge of designing this devices keeps us going so much longer in the game after the infamous diamond reset. Others have mentioned it before: We're still trying to find out, how far we can get with the current tools.

I'm still not sure how I feel about the "need" to go to the nether. On the one hand it is frustrating how much time Mojang dedicated to the nether without giving it much of a purpose. And it is again amazing how Flower gave meaning to the ressources found in the nether. On the other hand at first I was a bit disheartened by the thought of going to the nether for my simple indoor hemp farm.
Soon I realized that I don't need that farm from the very beginning. I can grow my hemp outdoors with the power of the sun or explore to find some pumpkins. Once I'm equipped to go to the nether and survive it, I can advance my growing techniques to the next level. So while the vM tech tree is at it's peak (Diamond tools to build portals), BTW still offers opportunities to improve the way I do things in the Age of Wood.

This difference in the ways that vM and BTW tech trees (light sources are a big leap in BTW tech, I feel) work, gives players another choice in how they want to approach the game. One player could rush the vM tech be digging down to get Diamonds, then go to the nether, collect ressources and build sophisticated things with BTW right away. Another player could choose to stay above ground, growing Hemp, only using stone, wood and the simple contraptions that are possible with his BTW tech level. Only slowly he/she would descend deeper and deeper into the bowels of earth, discovering the magics of redstone, finding more stable materials and encountering the dangers of the darkness. This player's techlevels would evolve somewhat in sync with each other. Making for a compelling gameplay, I believe. (I myself wanted to do the first, but am zeroing in on the second playstyle right now. It feels like a more natural progression path to me.)

So now the question is what does a "next Age" need to provide.
I think the most compelling gameplay comes from making meaningful decissions. So the next age would need to challenge players by offering choices how they want to approach things. One choice could be to stay in the Age Wood and master Ressource Collection or advance to the "next Age" rather quickly. Also the next Age could provide new ways to deal with common tasks, the player is faced with right now. The mentioned automated Mining devices could be a logical step for the next Age or the Age after that. Other ways of transporting or powering things are possible features as well. Players can choose to automate more and more of their ressource collection or just use new technologies to make manual labor easier. Advanced transport systems while still mining by pickaxe are also a possibility.
(Being overwhelmed by ideas right now, think about a mining drill attached to the bottom of a descendig platform. Slowly going down, grinding stones and ores in the way. Water currents, aided by pumps to deliver the materials to processing/storing devices. Oh, the possibilities. And challenges: automated Netherrack mining in the nether. Boats with chests for faster/safer waterbased transport ?)

I don't know how much Flower intents to do that. But since ressources are pretty much randomly distributed throughout the chunks right now. Maybe the addition of specialized "mining Biomes" can give more incentive to explore the world around our base. Of course, players would need a technique to probe the ground for ressources before setting up a huge mining operation.


tl;dr: I enjoy the Mod a lot.
BTW added a lot of gameplay altering choices.
As long as new Ages add meaningful choices/alternative to the way the game can be played, they will be cool, no matter what exactly Flower is adding.

PS:Since we already tan leather with dog poo, the addition of "alchemy" or basic chemics to the mod, might be something to explore as an Age of it's own. Stuff for future discussion I believe.

[morvelaira]

I'm back from my trip! Hooray! I'm sad to see this thread has slowed down a bit and gotten de-stickied though in the meantime. Off to go catch up and then add my cents!

Edit: OK! Reaction time!

One of the questions Adjuicator79 asked was what should the new age make players do differently. Somewhere else, earlier in the thread, it seemed to be agreed upon that automation was the highest level of competency in the Age of Wood. This might be true of the Age of Wood, or it might be true of Ages in general. Regardless, if automation is the highest level of competency, the next age should provide a use for the fruits of automation. If you are providing all these materials at an astounding rate, you need to have a use for them, else you are back to the "Got Diamonds, reset" mentality (even though it was a much longer path).

Danyo said that the point of the Age of Steam may be automation relating to the production of metals. Brilliant! The Age of Wood gave you access to near infinite resources that can be grown in the world like wood. If the Age of Steam/Steel gave you a way to boost your metals counts that would be a logical progression.

And are we really headed for the Age of Steam? I think so. Flower's hint still rings true to that for me. But at the same time, it's clear that an Age of Steam means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I'll refrain from trying to think anything more specific until we have a more clear direction - or someone comes to bounce ideas off of. ;)

[Triskelli]

Speaking of Adjuicator79, I wonder what happened to him... I hope he's O.K.

I'd add more to the discussion, but at this point we're spinning our wheels. The next Age is most likely to include further automation, most likely for mining and finite resource collection. I do like the concept of exploring a "Gunpowder Age" next, with cannons and more effective blasting material, but the overall reaction to those sorts of elements is usually negative. Plus, I doubt they fit well with the mod's established feel.

If Adjuicator doesn't reappear by tomorrow, I'll go ahead and come up with a new discussion topic. Don't want this bastion of sanity to falter, especially with the influx of *ahem* less articulate newcomers. =]

[Fracture]

Speaking of Adjuicator79, I wonder what happened to him... I hope he's O.K.

I'd add more to the discussion, but at this point we're spinning our wheels. The next Age is most likely to include further automation, most likely for mining and finite resource collection. I do like the concept of exploring a "Gunpowder Age" next, with cannons and more effective blasting material, but the overall reaction to those sorts of elements is usually negative. Plus, I doubt they fit well with the mod's established feel.

If Adjuicator doesn't reappear by tomorrow, I'll go ahead and come up with a new discussion topic. Don't want this bastion of sanity to falter, especially with the influx of *ahem* less articulate newcomers. =]

To be honest, anyone should be able to put forward a discussion topic if they think they have one worth talking about. If the majority goes for it, so be it. Adjudicator can't be expected to act as this thread's sole guide-- with the intelligent arguments being put forth, any one of us should be able to think of something new to discuss if a topic grows stale.

I'd try putting something forward, but trying to think right now feels like introducing blunt objects to my skull.

[Triskelli]

Okay, here's a good one, it's been bandied about since the creation of Minecraft, and many people have strong opinions on it. Hopefully by discussing it reasonably we can discover much more about the game and the Mod we've gathered around.


Why are guns considered to be incompatible with Minecraft? Or conversely, why are guns such a requested addition to the game? Does this negative reaction come from firearms betraying the Medieval "theme" of Minecraft, or is it a side effect of how guns are perceived both in video games and society?

I have a few opinions on the subject myself, but would like to see how others feel about this first.
Here's an interesting video about the gun in video games and culture.

~Triskelli

[Adjudicator79]

First, my apologies everyone on my weekend absence. We are starting to gear up for our summer language program at work and I spent most of my weekend traveling to and from the airport picking up our new international students. We like to give them an in-person welcome and, since my boss is out of the country and my coworker is pregnant, this meant I had to get pretty much everyone that came in this weekend. Also, to be honest, I spent what free time I did have playing the game instead of working on the boards!

Second, amazing responses, everyone. I am floored by the amount of creativity, insight, and thought put into your posts. Haniale and Rasuth, great first posts. Welcome to the only Minecraft thread on the internet that actually engages in meaningful conversation! We're always glad to have new contributors.

I might go back and add some edits to this to comment on specific suggestions since Friday night, but I want to make sure we get going on a new discussion topic. And, by the way, Fracture is completely correct that anyone is welcome to propose a discussion topic, especially if there is one that looks pretty acceptable to the community as the current discussion winds down. The reality is that I'll be getting more to do as we head into the fall semester, not less, so there will be days when I'm not able to post in any meaningful way. My only two stated preferences would be that 1) only veterans of the thread come up with a new discussion topic. I don't think we need to add the worry of first-time BTW: Design Philosophy posters trying to create a valid discussion topic. And 2) if you propose a discussion topic (and don't post only for the purpose of proposing a new topic) and it is accepted, you are the moderator for the topic. You dont' get to propose a topic and then expect someone else to manage the response. Failure to do so will cut down on the likelihood that you're future proposals will be adopted as discussion topics. I'll add these rules to the OP, along with Triskelli's new discussion topic.

Also, other people creating discussion topics allows me to chime in as a participant, instead of as a moderator! As for Triskelli's topic, I'll be the first to weigh in!

I think the strong animal husbandry elements to the game are what prompt the initial clamor for firearms. We can't but help to view our games (especially period pieces) through the light of our real world history. And we know that the use of melee and ranged weapons like the sword and bow eventually led to the use of firearms. And despite popular culture's depiction, the primary use for non-military firearms (shotguns and rifles, not AK-47s, etc) around the world is still hunting. I grew up in a town that took the first day of hunting season as an unofficial holiday from school, so that everyone, including the teachers, could go stock their freezers with deer meat. It just makes sense to us in a historical context to consider firearms as an extension of resource manipulation. Especially when creepers drop actual "gunpowder" as a resource.

As for perceived incompatibility, I think this goes back to FlowerChild's disagreement with Notch about the "fantasy" style of the game. Flower has stated explicitly that he doesn't see vM as this kind of period (or genre) locked game. It might be that the Adventure Mode firmly established vM as a fantasy game. But the engine that drives vM currently is, in my opinion, spot on with what Flower argues, simply a form that makes it possible to engage with the world. There's no inherent genre or period restriction that applies. Those that find vM to be inherently "fantasy" resist the inclusion of firearms because of the perceived incompatibility between the two elements.

And I'd argue, Triskelli, that it has to be the "fantasy" element individuals are clinging too, since any student of history (and that was my major), will tell you that not only was gunpowder prevalent in the Medieval time period, but so were firearms. They just were unwieldy from the perspective of effective warfare. As personal weapons, they had quite a following and some even rose to the level of fashion accessories and certainly as outward displays of wealth.

As for me, personally, I don't know that I see the need for firearms in the game as it stands right now. There'd be little functional difference between a bow and a gun (other number of shots needed to kill, obviously). And I really would not look forward to having to craft individual bullets. That said, if hostile mobs were adjusted in vM somehow, it might change this perspective. And I'd love to see the ability to mount actual artillery on my walls. Can you imagine using the BD, lenses, and artillery?! I'd have wonderful fields of fire set up to force mobs or players through automatic cannon fire!

[SterlingRed]

I honestly don't know why people want guns in the game so much. I personally don't see the point. We have swords, and we have a bow. Those are already weapons enough. If I can pull out an ak47 and just shoot a creeper to hell from 3 chunks away, whats the point of playing on a difficulty setting other than peaceful?

I see 2 major problems with guns in vM.
1) Too technologically advanced for steve without a lot of tech content additions. We go from making crud hand tools out of resources to making precision hammers, pins, casings, barrels, bullets etc?
2) Overpowered. Any ranged weapon more powerful than the bow we have currently would be overpowered for the mobs we have.

I'm not opposed to the addition of guns/muskets/pistols in the future so long as it logically fits within steve's technological abilities and that there are mobs strong enough for the addition of guns to make sense.

[Shengji]

I, and I'm guessing, most people are not too bothered by the medieval thing or guns as a concept, but the lack of balance a weapon like that could introduce.

Personally I play as a modern person somehow stranded in this dangerous and empty land, so I don't see a technological issue with guns like muskets. Should I be stranded on a desert island and with access to gunpowder, I reckon I could bang together a surprisingly sophisticated musket. Of course rifles and the precision engineering they require would be beyond me, I think it would take several generations to make a lathe with the required precision.

What really bothers me about guns in minecraft is that I can easily create scenarios where the gun gives me huge advantage - standing on my battlements taking potshots all night is already too easy with the bow, and that moment where you round the next corner in a cave system and three creepers charge you from the gloom would be ruined. A gun would take away the tiny last bit of danger left in the game when you have built your home. Enemy AI would not offer any challenge what so ever. I'm looking forward to the powering up bow mechanic as I think this weapon with its knockback is hugely too powerful for the challenges the game offers.

An interesting idea is starting you with a pistol with 6 bullets, but once they're gone... thats it! But even then the first night or two would have to be drastically harder to justify this.

Now moving away from the idea of a gun as a hand held fps style weapon and to me the concept gets much more interesting. I like the idea of cannons/mortars both as a mining tool and a defensive weapon - yes it's powerful, but points only in the direction you placed it and scars the landscape making it a weapon of last resort. I personally like to put up monuments and give my worlds history. Every time I die, I like to put up a gravestone on that spot. Every creeper crater is left and given some form of importance to my world, whether I turn it into a lake or redesign a destroyed building corner, it adds to the layers of interest in my world. Cannon scars would remind me of epic battles, but the current enemies would not suffice to justify it. Maybe if something triggered a major attack by a co-ordinated group of enemies, then something like this would be an option.

Of course we already can fire arrows from blocks, and a powerful defense can be implemented using these.

I don't believe there is any reason to look much deeper, most people who play games are men, most men played with toy guns when they were children. Culturally I don't have any problem with them in games.

[morvelaira]

My two cents to add to the firearm question are these:

Firstly, I agree with the folks above who say that firearms are pretty much overpowered for the enemies we face in this game. Now if PVP were a major objective in the game, I could see the use for it - I imagine starting out fresh on a server with 3-10 friends and then rushing an arms race to conquer each others territory would be a fun thing! However, this being BTW, is not something that would happen for a while.

Secondly, I think the disconnect most people have with firearms is not a perceived medieval or fantasy setting, but rather the fact that this is MINEcraft. With the risk of cave ins and dangerous explosives about, who uses a gun in a mine?

And Adjudicator, glad you are back It sounds like you have an interesting and fulfilling job. :)

[cheechako]

I don't believe there is any reason to look much deeper, most people who play games are men, most men played with toy guns when they were children. Culturally I don't have any problem with them in games.

I think it has less to do with toy guns and more to do with BFGs and FPS.

I haven't downloaded any gun mods. If some people want that, fine. I'm happy without.

But if Notch adds guns, then I'm gonna mod Kevlar vests for the Creepers. :)

[Brothulhu]

I don't believe there is any reason to look much deeper, most people who play games are men, most men played with toy guns when they were children. Culturally I don't have any problem with them in games.

I think it has less to do with toy guns and more to do with BFGs and FPS.

I haven't downloaded any gun mods. If some people want that, fine. I'm happy without.

But if Notch adds guns, then I'm gonna mod Kevlar vests for the Creepers. :)

Even better, mod it to where they explode when you shoot them. Then it forces the want to use swords. B)

[Triskelli]

Heheh, guess this means I need to respond to everyone's comments. *cracks knuckles* Well, let's give it a shot!

@Adjudicator79: Wonderful to have you back! The topic nearly fell off the front page due to the influx of new posts and new users. Honestly, I think it's time for the Banhammer to appear in true force.




...Getting back on topic, I agree with you on every point. Guns make logical sense, but not gameplay sense. The traditional rifle represents a total mastery over the natural world, and evokes the image of the lone pioneer, or the hunter with dog at his side.

Interestingly enough, it seems works of fantasy are including more and more guns as time goes on: games like Fable, Warcraft, or Warhammer prominently feature rifles and pistols as primary weapons. So the "fantasy genre" agruement for exclusion fails as well.

Also, totally rooting for artillery. While TNT cannons already exist, they are situational, far too large and unwieldy, and extremely expensive for the job they do. This is an instance where something simpler would help.


@SterlingRed: Bingo. Guns of any sort would be very overpowered considering how mobs behave and the threat they currently pose. But we're not just looking at Kalashnikovs here, but the concept of rifles and cannons themselves.


Shengji: Also, excellent contribution. Mobs are currently far too few and too dumb to pose a significant threat at range. Heck, some people in these forums have dedicated themselves to finding ever more creative ways to exploit how they behave, and farm them for their resources.

However, if newer, more dangerous mobs were included, or if the current ones were made sufficiently threatening, the use of firearms would be more readily accepted. Perhaps this would be the "eXterminate" segment of the 4X model. =]


@morelaira: Yeah, it's not GUNcraft. (Although that sounds like an interesting game. Hmm...)


I would like to see TNT have increased effectiveness, or be simpler to make like Industrial TNT from Industrialcraft. Despite being designed as a tool of war, I imagine cannons would be far more useful as construction tools! =D

@Brothulu & cheechako: Pretty funny! But let's stay on topic. What would everyone think of cannons, if not rifles?

[Brothulhu]

Well, on the topic of rifles, I think I would be comfortable with them if lets say:

1. Rifles 1 hit kill friendly mobs like pigs, sheep, and cows instantly making hunting for some basic materials quite a bit faster.

2. Rifles do not kill skeletons or zeds, however one hit kill creepers (causing them to explode. Seriously, that's non negotiable) and has the same effect as arrows on spiders.

3. Have a delay in time before each shot is taken.
I feel this would be a decent balance, and it wouldn't completely nerf arrows. I also agree that there should be a few more mobs before even considering putting rifles in the game at all.

As for cannons, while playing on single player, I can't imagine any actual use for them. Sure they're cool and destructive, but in single player since you aren't fighting off actual hordes and hordes of things, I cant imagine it being very useful.

However, on SMP... I'd have a blast with them.

No pun was intended, but I'm glad it happened.

[walker_boh_65]

cannons would have a use on single player, if the Red moon i read about somewhere, was put into action, where all the mobs join in force and assault you base, then i think the cannon wouldnt be too overpowered to be put into the game,

on the topic of guns, in order for them not to be ridiculously overpowered, the game may have to put in giants, which i read was taking out of something somewhere, and possibly some tougher mobs, the only problem would be if they are so tough they need a gun to be killed with, how could a player that is not at high tech level kill them?

[Brothulhu]

cannons would have a use on single player, if the Red moon i read about somewhere, was put into action, where all the mobs join in force and assault you base, then i think the cannon wouldnt be too overpowered to be put into the game,

on the topic of guns, in order for them not to be ridiculously overpowered, the game may have to put in giants, which i read was taking out of something somewhere, and possibly some tougher mobs, the only problem would be if they are so tough they need a gun to be killed with, how could a player that is not at high tech level kill them?

Well if red moon was implemented, then I'd agree cannons would be useful, however the load delay I said with the rifle should still apply here, to give the game a bit of edge and balance.

As for the player versus the giant, if they didnt have the rifle, they could always run into a wooded area or dig away, or if they REALLY want to take him down, time and persistence my friend. Time and persistence.

[Adjudicator79]

Brothulu: I like the delay between shots. In fact, it makes sense with original firearm design. Every early firearm was single shot in design. I'd love it if early firearms actually required manually opening your inventory and placing a bullet in the weapon, maybe in an inventory slot, rather than a quick bar/backpack slot. That could still allow for some benefit to the weapon's increased damage (taking out mobs from afar with a single shot), without nerfing the rapid fire advantage of the bow.

[Haniale]

Guns breaks into firearms and artillery I think - neither of which are out of game thematically, though I don't see a current logical progression towards them without a mod like BTW. vM is currently a fantasy/basic world, but I don't see a reason it can't move into other technological states - see Ages arguments. However, there is no reason to "fee" like you've progressed out of that setting - with what details we have on NPC villages, Steve would be the only one that progressed out of the stone ages. Mobs, resources, textures, and most building styles would all be the same as they were from day dot. Major disconnect for any "modern" feature.

Firearms are just Bow +1, I think, and fall under bloat. End of the day, it's just a toggle flag that lets you click to make a powered projectile object. Only thing I can see working here would be some kind of shotgun, low range but wide spread, with a long reload time. Again, this would have to be logically progressed towards.

Artillery on the other hand, could be constructed from multiple blocks, and that sounds just awesome. Trebuchet based resource movement, anyone? This would fit a lot better into the thematic feel of minecraft, as it could be catapults - the bow equilvent. Have it fling tnt and you've got a cannon-esque object.

Of course, this could be extend justification to my main concern: As soon as guns are added to any game, it becomes a FPS. "Pistol?! You should make a rifle! rocket launcher! Machine gun! Shotgun! Sniper! Grenade launcher! Lasers! Add death matches! Have scoreboards at the end of every day!" I don't really see a need for a gun, and I don't see any reason for them to be added. I see reasons for them to not be added, since a gun is a completely destructive item, but I see reasons not to add them. Chief being, mc is about making things, not destroying.

And honestly? It's nice to just play a game that's not designed around violence. I don't see the need for more weaponry, and I could argue the bow and sword are too much now - if you want to kill something, construct and overly complicated lava pit that even Rube Goldberg would marvel at. Artillery constructed with multiple parts would be interesting, but more because of how it could be used for non-leathal things more so than hitting things. We can make cannons now, really.

Overall - Guns are requested because it's what people are most familiar with in gaming. Most games involve warfare of some kind, and I believe most requests are from a desire to have a shooter with minecraft elements. Minecraft is clearly not any particular theme we know, but has elements of may. However, as it stands now, technological elements like firearms would be out of place in it's world, so for anything non-fantasy/medievil, the world would have to evolve as well.

'course, arrows + repeater + item dispenser literally shoots the argument down. :|

I don't believe there is any reason to look much deeper, most people who play games are men, most men played with toy guns when they were children. Culturally I don't have any problem with them in games.

Whilst true, females do make up between 40 and 50 percent on average in every survey I've seen, and that tends to hold true with my experiance. This really isn't an argument you can use for anything anymore, unless the targeted demographic is males in which case you wouldn't be trying to use it anyway. Now, if you meant "shooter games", that's different, but we're getting into genre based demographics, and would have to questions mc's as well.

[Fracture]

cannons would have a use on single player, if the Red moon i read about somewhere, was put into action, where all the mobs join in force and assault you base, then i think the cannon wouldnt be too overpowered to be put into the game,

I'm guessing you mean a Blood Moon similar to that used by the game Terraria? If so, then yeah, automated defenses would eventually become a must in Steve's base. Arrows could be used for a quick, early way to automate Steve's monster-repelling, while a cannons could have a larger, more cumbersome loading sequence in order to balance out their power. For instance, gunpowder (or some recipe-achieved variant thereof) could be loaded from a hopper, in the top, while a cannon shot could be piston-loaded from the front.

It would allow players for seriously mob-clearing defensive weapons, without making them easy to use in such a manner that the player could abuse them to slaughter things in the field. Outside the setting of a well-established base, cannons would be largely useless.

@Haniale: I definitely agree on siege weapons. With our current Age of Wood in BTW along with mechanical power they seem like the next logical step. For catapults/ballistae and trebuchets though, we'd need to have new methods of building mechanical power for the launching mechanism-- compression/torsion energy storing and counter-weights respectively. Once Steve uses them in this manner, he could logically also apply those to other areas, existing mechanisms that would be streamlined with compression or weights, or entirely new systems we could create with them.

That, in my opinion, is something we should stay true to in both vM and BTW-- new technologies shouldn't be totally exclusive to their intended purpose, they should always be something that, once discovered, we can apply to other mechanisms as well. For instance the cauldron with Hibachis-- it's the main use for them, but we can also use Hibachis for many varied systems.

[Adjudicator79]

Fracture: Great point on the exclusive technological progression element. BTW excels at encouraging players to implement technologies across multiple applications. And I love that aspect of BTW and feel like it turns the game into more than just an escape and more of an actual mental exercise.

And I like the the multi-block system ideas for siege weapons. Flower has already mentioned how he loves multi-block solutions, and I definitely enjoy it as an element of actual game play. Creating interactions with different technologies and blocks to achieve a single, spectacular effect makes me appreciate the effort and hours put into the game.

And I'd love some kind of Red Moon scenario. It'd be great to know that every so often you had to deal with a mystical, massive swarm of monsters attacking your very existence for some unknown reason. That makes me think of ideas for my current build world already.

[Triskelli]

The general feeling it seems is that rifles or muskets aren't needed due to redundancy. Haniale said it best:

Firearms are just Bow +1, I think, and fall under bloat.

So the question is what would set guns apart from bows in a functional sense? I think Brothulu has the best idea, by making the rifle a tool for hunting rather than a way of fighting dangerous mobs.


As far as artillery goes... I agree that it'd be infinitely more useful in SMP, or if Flower increased the mob counts. Love the concept of a trebuchet transport system, though! =]

[morvelaira]

Love the concept of a trebuchet transport system, though! =]

Ooh. Oooooohhhh....

For it to be successful though, we'd need a good way of not dying when landing. Sounds like a lot of experimentation to make sure you land into water, ala the daring high dives of the Edwardian era.

But this gets into the realm of two different types of possible topics. One is alternate transportation - I know we had sort of shelved this idea until the question of Age of Steam/Steel had become more clear. The other, more specifically in that vein, is flight. I know several other mods are out there to give the players flight, be it just a natural ability or requiring more complex crafted machines to achieve.

Thoughts? Our next topic?

[Brothulhu]

Love the concept of a trebuchet transport system, though! =]

Ooh. Oooooohhhh....

For it to be successful though, we'd need a good way of not dying when landing. Sounds like a lot of experimentation to make sure you land into water, ala the daring high dives of the Edwardian era.

But this gets into the realm of two different types of possible topics. One is alternate transportation - I know we had sort of shelved this idea until the question of Age of Steam/Steel had become more clear. The other, more specifically in that vein, is flight. I know several other mods are out there to give the players flight, be it just a natural ability or requiring more complex crafted machines to achieve.

Thoughts? Our next topic?

The Airship Mod that gives you a nice little steampunk airship (I forget who makes it) always intrests me, but I don't really think flight fits into the feel of vanilla minecraft. We really didn't (as far as I know) have true flight designs until DaVinci, and even his design wasn't capable of lifting anyone into the air. Honestly, we've just RECENTLY achieved flight on the grand scale of things.
Besides that, I can't think of any actual use for it in SSP, because you normally return to your base after long trips, and anything you need to reach can be done so by foot and boat. I think the farthest I ever travel isn't even on the surface, its in my mines, lol.

[Triskelli]

^ That's getting off topic, but it's an intruiging line of inquiry.

Does anyone else have anything to say about Cannons, Trebuchet, or other miscellaneous types of artillery before we continue? Guns and cannons might be more interesting for 1.8 with the inclusion of NPC villages. As Napoleon said, a whiff of grapeshot would keep those plebeians in line. >=]

[Fracture]

^ That's getting off topic, but it's an intruiging line of inquiry.

Does anyone else have anything to say about Cannons, Trebuchet, or other miscellaneous types of artillery before we continue? Guns and cannons might be more interesting for 1.8 with the inclusion of NPC villages. As Napoleon said, a whiff of grapeshot would keep those plebeians in line. >=]

Only that, perhaps, alternative transportation might be something to explore further in BTW. We've moved from path-limited horizontal transportation of us, items and mobs, to vertical path-limited transportation of the same.

If we assume the piston patch is used, for entity launching, we can also assume to have aerial transportation of those three, again with a defined start and end point. Perhaps next we should expand on open-ended transportation. We have boats, but they can only carry the player. We have yet for unlimited aerial, ground-based or water transit which can move objects and mobs, as well as the player.

By no means should they be as efficient as the limited transports, but they would greatly encourage exploring greater distances from our "home base", especially when animals become more permanent, and we need to adventure to renew our flock. With the current system, we have the choice of either laying mine tracks everywhere we go, or slaying things where we find them, carting around just 1 inventory's worth of items, and almost entirely moving about by foot.