The controller thread (HOTAS, Steam Controller, etc)

[Gilberreke]

I own a bunch of peripherals. I've always disliked using a typewriter to control a game, so I avoid keyboard controls whenever I can. Lately there's been a resurgence of peripheral innovation it seems. I didn't want to derail the VR thread, so let's talk about that here.

Winners/losers for me:

- I've owned a Thrustmaster T16000M for several years now. It's really good and it's ambidextrous. If I were to run a HOTAS-style game, I'd run HOSAS with two of these suckers. I'd really like to own the new upgraded version. I've also played games with left hand joystick, right hand mouse. It works, but I'm really sad the WASDIO never made it, because there's nothing else on the market that even looks like it.

- Gamepads: I'm very opiniated, I own about 5 of em. The main ones are a Razer Sabertooth, for the analog triggers (love it, but the d-pad is shite), a Logitech dual analog (PS2 clone, but a little bigger and nicer) and a Thrustmaster with lots of buttons (it's more than a decade old, but it has the Steam Controller style buttons on the back, as does the Razer, don't let anyone tell you that Valve invented those).

- Steam Controllers. I want one, but I haven't been able to try one yet. Kaitocain swears by it. The software they offer also works with a PS4 controller. Do you have one? Do you like it?

- Audio: I have an external graphics card, Sennheiser studio headphones, a condenser microphone, 70's audiophile speakers. Do you think it's important? Do you own a headset (I loathe those things, I need a separate mic)?

What other peripherals do you own? Do you think race wheels are worth it? Do you own a chair that ties into peripherals? Do you own bigger setups like HOTAS style?


Just pick the topics you like and discuss :). Feel free to discuss anything I didn't mention (I own a Wacom tablet too for example).

[Daisjun]

Monitor: I recently picked up an Acer XB280HK. 4K@60Hz. Really nice monitor. I can't go back to anything under 4K now. It comes with GSync which pushed the price up a little. I honestly haven't noticed a difference with it and what's more odd is that I get screen tearing if I don't enable V-sync in games which seems to me to completely defeat the purpose of it.

Sound: I've always been amazed by the sound quality of Logitech devices for the price. I've used the same 2.1 Logitech speakers for my computers over the last 10 years or so. Never considered upgrading them. I also own a Steelseries Siberia V3 headset. Nice comfortable headset but the build quality is a bit iffy. Have had issues with the microphone and volume control.

Gamepads: I've stuck with wired 360 controllers for a long time. Really well designed pad that's compatible with just about every Steam game that has joy pad support. I'd like to try out a Steam controller though. I also have some knock off Nintendo pads for my RetroPi. Now that you've mentioned it, I really want a nice joystick now, haven't used one for about 20 years.

Racing wheels: I have a Momo Logitech wheel that I literally found at the side of the road. Works a treat! Didn't come with a power adapter though so no force feedback, possibly why it was tossed. I'd like to upgrade to a G27/29 in future, I really want a clutch pedal. I think they're worth it if you have a dedicated setup for them. Unfortunately I don't have the room for one so it doesn't get used much. Nice thing with VR though is that you don't have to worry about where your setup is relative to a display.

Keyboard/Mouse: I have a G510 and G9X. Love them, but I'd like to upgrade to a mechanical keyboard in future.

Other: I bought a Steam Link the other day. Really nice way to stream games to your TV. Surprised that it came with an HDMI and ethernet cable meaning it was ready right out of the box. The latency is really good. Unfortunately it's a bit hit and miss as to what's compatible. I've come across issues with games not starting or working with a controller. I also have an HTC Vive which I've talked about in the other thread.

I honestly swear by Logitech products if you couldn't tell. Great value for money. If Logitech made monitors I'd probably have one of those as well.

[Katalliaan]

Mouse and Keyboard: I have a G15 keyboard, which works quite well. My MX518 mouse also worked very well, until the cable started to intermittently fail on me. I replaced it with a Deathadder, but it's awful in comparison - no on-the-fly DPI changing makes it difficult to switch tasks, and being required to create an account just to change settings on a local device is infuriating. I'm considering attempting a repair on the MX518, since they're no longer being made

Gamepads: I own a Steelseries 3GC and a wired 360 pad. The 3GC was okay (it's basically a knockoff Dualshock controller), but I had to replace it with the 360 pad for two reasons - it only supported DirectInput while most games expected XInput, and it lacked analog input on its triggers. That said, it worked great for the stuff that I used it for - mainly driving around in Planetside 2. The 360 pad was an improvement, although it took me a while to get used to the different layout of the analog sticks.

Audio: I've owned a bunch of headsets, mainly because the inline volume controls and microphone mute options were convenient. I've since moved on to headphones (currently Sennheiser HD 280s) and a standalone microphone (cheap little Samson Go clipped to my monitor). I'm no audiophile, but I'd say that a decent sound setup is pretty important. I won't go all-out on it, but I don't go cheap on my headphones.

Flightsticks: I own a Saitek ST290 Pro and x52 Pro. I haven't really gotten the chance to use the x52 due to a lack of room (my desk barely has enough space for my keyboard and monitors), but the 290 was nice while it lasted. It has a reversible, adjustable grip so you can use it with either hand and put the rest to a height that's appropriate for it. However, I've since lost two of the caps to the buttons. The x52 works fairly well, but the little mouse stick on the back of the throttle is a bit tricky because its axes aren't aligned the way I'd expect, although I suspect I'd get used to it if I had the chance to practice with it.

Wired vs Wireless: I heavily dislike wireless devices. I don't have the room to make wireless worthwhile (I barely have enough space between my desk and bed for a chair), so I would just be left with the drawback of having to charge/replace the batteries in them.

[FlowerChild]

I used to have a XBox 360 racing wheel and pedals which I thought was the shit for games like FORZA and such. Force feedback on it was really strong, to the point where my arms used to get tired playing Dirt :)

Eventually the power supply jack went on the thing, which killed the force feedback, but for me personally, a wheel is great for immersion, but not necessarily the greatest control device for driving games, as the effort it takes to both turn the wheel and operate the pedals is far greater than that of just using a standard controller to do the same. I know when I got into online racing, I went back to using a regular controller for longer races because of that. I also had a Thrustmaster wheel maybe 20 - 25 years ago as well (around the time of the first Papyrus NASCAR game), but I doubt that's a decent comparison to modern wheels, especially since it had no pedals.

Anyways, I know some people swear by a wheel, but I actually have mixed feelings on them. I do regret not having one for My Summer Car right now, but that has more to do with it having really fidgety controls.

For everyday gaming I use a wired XBox 360 controller, and having owned a number of them over the year, am more than happy with that device.

[Daisjun]

Wired vs Wireless: I heavily dislike wireless devices. I don't have the room to make wireless worthwhile (I barely have enough space between my desk and bed for a chair), so I would just be left with the drawback of having to charge/replace the batteries in them.

I can't stand them either. I usually just get fed up with them and end up permanently having them plugged in. I do have a wireless mouse and keyboard for my TV, but they're low power so the batteries need changing so rarely that it's not really an issue.

I remember when I used to play online games with the Wii which was wireless only unless you bought a special adapter. The latency was atrocious, I don't know whose bright idea that was. I also had a set of LG surround sound speakers with the rears connecting wirelessly via bluetooth. They ended up shitting themselves one day and never worked since. I didn't even buy them for the wireless functionality, they were just the best value ones I saw. I would've been happy to wire them up.

[MoRmEnGiL]

Hehe, the only gamepad I like is the one I still use. A ps2 dual shock, connected to my pc by a usb adaptor. No other gamepad I've used feels that good in my hands. I tried playing street fighter4 on an xbox 360 controller, I sucked badly. Sad thing is, most games these days only really support 360 pads..

As for mouse, the ONLY mouse I like, and trust me I did months of research, is the logitech g700. I had the previous g700 model, that broke after 6 years of use, so I just bought the same one again (but new model of g700) It's a wireless gaming mouse, but I don't use it for gaming. I just use the programmable buttons for things like volume control, mute, zoom, esc button and I can pretty much control my pc with one hand. Plus I love the wheel.

On a sidenote, I still use the same microsoft multimedia keyboard since 2002. :P

[Gilberreke]

Can someone explain why everyone is using such cheap gear, while their PCs are probably like $2000? I mean, I agree that the default 360 controller is not that bad, but to pair one with a high end gaming rig seems odd to me. I personally spend like half my gaming budget on peripherals, that's what I have to use all the time.

Not aimed at anyone in particular btw or a dig. I'm just genuinely curious why it is that I'm different in these matters. I'd rather play 5 year old games with an expensive controller than new ones with a cheap one, but it seems I'm by far in the minority in this.

Very curious.

Quite a bit of good gear in this thread too though, so I'm sure it's not just me. And I do agree that the PS2 Dual Shock design was a really good design and the Logitech clone is just super awesome, with the rubber grips and the force feedback.

[MoRmEnGiL]

Well, personally I play very few games that are not mouse and keyboard. The very few I play that need a gamepad, the dual shock 2 is a one way. I don't need anything else. I've used countless different keyboards, my old ms one feels better than all of them. If it ever breaks I will be depressed. I should have bought 3-4 back then.. (it's a ps2 port too, doesn't take up usb slots :P)

Also I don't see my pc as a gaming rig. It's a pc that I also use for gaming. My GPU is an old AMD Radeon HD 6790 :P Since I mostly play turn based strategy games, all I need I have.

[Katalliaan]

I only use my other peripherals when the M&KB controls are bad, usually a case of a bad console port - for example the driving and flying controls in GTA5 are awful, so I switched to the 360 pad when I had to use a car/plane/helicopter/etc and switch back to my M&KB for on-foot. Since I use M&KB for the majority of my gaming, I don't see the point in buying an expensive gamepad.

[DiamondArms]

As someone who owns a Xbox 360 and ps3, its really convenient to hork a controller temporarily if I need it for a PC game. I've yet to try any high-end controllers, but the 360 and ps3 controllers I own suffice for me and family when needed.

[DaveYanakov]

I only use my other peripherals when the M&KB controls are bad, usually a case of a bad console port - for example the driving and flying controls in GTA5 are awful, so I switched to the 360 pad when I had to use a car/plane/helicopter/etc and switch back to my M&KB for on-foot. Since I use M&KB for the majority of my gaming, I don't see the point in buying an expensive gamepad.

I do exactly the same, only driving with the keyboard when I expect to need to return fire. The animations for entering and exiting a vehicle are usually more than enough to make the switch. I do use the controller exclusively for most games involving vehicle operation (that are not Elite with it's function for every key...) but I've never understood how anyone can play a shooter made since the original Doom without a mouse

[Gilberreke]

I do exactly the same, only driving with the keyboard when I expect to need to return fire. The animations for entering and exiting a vehicle are usually more than enough to make the switch. I do use the controller exclusively for most games involving vehicle operation (that are not Elite with it's function for every key...) but I've never understood how anyone can play a shooter made since the original Doom without a mouse

See, the issue here it seems is keyboards. Do people really enjoy playing *any* game with a keyboard? I feel like every time I have to touch that thing in a game, is one time too many. Obviously, I wouldn't play an FPS game without a mouse, and unfortunately, that does tend to force me to use the keyboard, and I HATE it. I've played games with a left-hand joystick, right hand mouse, but that ruins your left wrist after a while.

Why did the WASDIO fail and why is the Steam Controller the first tech innovation in that space in decades? It seems to me like people genuinely don't have an issue gaming with a keyboard more than anything else. It doesn't help that there's a group of people that disagree with that statement, but they delude themselves into thinking it's okay to play FPS with a dual stick controller.

I would buy an Orbweaver or similar, but their thumb stick is an 8-way, and I don't feel like that's the future. Fortunately, the Steam Controller is at least pushing the industry in the right direction, forcing devs to care more about button bindings again. To properly support the Steam Controller, you have to implement a bunch of stuff that would allow Razer to go and replace the thumb stick on products like that with an analog stick. I'm too lazy right now to explain the specifics of it, so if you're curious how that all works, ask me and I'll type up a post about it.

[Niyu]

Do people really enjoy playing *any* game with a keyboard?

To me, at this point a keyboard is like an extension of my own hand. When I sit in front of my keyboard at my job my hand goes instantly to the wasd keys until I realise and correct the position.
So yes, i enjoy playing games with a keyboard. I mostly play anything first person or shooter oriented with mouse + keyboard and anything else with a controller. for games that have a mix between 3d person action and shooting (like oddworld:stranger wrath) I use both if I can.

[FlowerChild]

[Do people really enjoy playing *any* game with a keyboard? I feel like every time I have to touch that thing in a game, is one time too many.

Yeah, I'm beginning to feel that way myself. I really straddle the fence between the pros and cons of mouse keyboard vs gamepad where in multi-genre games like GTA, I'll wind up opting for gamepad but with pure FPS I'll still lean mouse/keyboard. For MC style creative games though, I think nothing beats mouse/keyboard at present due to the number of inputs you need access to. Really, number of inputs would be what I consider to be a keyboard's main (and possibly only) strength.

I did some interesting experimenting recently with My Summer Car where I setup my driving controls so I could do most important stuff with left hand only on my 360 controller, while keeping my right on mouse for freelook. I mainly did that because of that game's messed up control options, but I found that it worked surprisingly well, and I may experiment with that further in FPS games.

Unfortunately, I find switching between analog stick and DPad to be awkward while holding it one handed, which tends to cut down on the number of inputs you have easy access to. I think I'd also want to get a mouse with a lot of buttons if I were to really adopt this scheme. Ideally I think I'd like to have a dedicated one-hand device like the old Wii nunchuck for my left hand, but again, with more buttons.

Steam controller never interested me. That touch pad always looked like a rubbish mouse substitute to me.

[Niyu]

I think nothing beats mouse/keyboard at present due to the number of inputs you need access to.

I forgot about that. I played a heavily modded skyrim playthrough that had all keys in my keyboard bound until the ujm column.

[Gilberreke]

To me, at this point a keyboard is like an extension of my own hand. When I sit in front of my keyboard at my job my hand goes instantly to the wasd keys until I realise and correct the position.

Sounds a bit of a circular argument to me: I like it, because I'm used to it.

Really, number of inputs would be what I consider to be a keyboard's main (and possibly only) strength.

Yeah, until we get innovation in the space, there is NO good solution out there right now. The amount of inputs is the main issue to solve. That's why I'm so sad the WASDIO didn't make it.



I think that solves most of the issues we have. Unfortunately, it didn't make it on Kickstarter, so there's not even a few of them out there, so I could hunt for one.

I did some interesting experimenting recently with My Summer Car where I setup my driving controls so I could do most important stuff with left hand only on my 360 controller, while keeping my right on mouse for freelook.

This is one that keeps coming back. Everyone dissatisfied with keyboard seems to try this one at least once (and I know people that make it work and actually play like that all the time).

As mentioned above, I tried a flight stick in left hand, mouse in right, but that doesn't quite work either, because FPS-style games like Minecraft require too much action on that left hand, destroying your wrist. The time that I did use it, though, it was kinda glorious. It's a bit hard to find games that allow you to do this (a whole different story), but I had lots of fun, until I realized my wrist started hurting and I couldn't really pull off good strafing. The flight stick I own (linked above) does have quite a few buttons in reach, but never quite enough. Enough that a mouse with extra buttons would solve the issue though.

The setup is good enough that in HOTAS communities, stick+mouse is almost considered cheating :)

The final point I'd like to make towards people using a keyboard is pretty simple: the issue is your keyboard isn't analog. Most people don't seem to get that, but with a stick, I get infinite control over where I want to go, the keyboard just doesn't allow that, no matter how familiar it is to you. Unless you've tried moving around a game with a stick, you don't get that. The proof is pretty simple: the code used for gamepad controls is way more complex, because it allows for more freedom. I found several games, where there's entire animations and gameplay mechanics (Mafia 2 for example), that they just flat-out disable for keyboard users. People will reply with: "I disagree, gamepads are bad for FPS", but what they want to say is: "a mouse is better than a thumbstick for free-look" and I agree with that. Freelook requires a mouse, but that doesn't say anything about a keyboard being any good.

Here's a video of someone using a nunchuk controller:

[Katalliaan]

I feel like the WASDIO would give you the same issues you said you had when using a flight stick. Another option might be more along the lines of the G13 (NOT the similar Razer products, since they only have a d-pad whereas the G13's stick is analog), where you can use the rest of your fingers to push buttons instead of holding the controller.

[FlowerChild]

Sounds a bit of a circular argument to me: I like it, because I'm used to it.

Well, not entirely, as the context in which we've gotten used to keyboards (typing) is not the same one in which we're liking it for gaming. Standardization and conventions are hugely important in UI design, regardless of whether they represent the most effective configuration, and I think that's true here as well.

Regardless of how many buttons I need for a game, I can find assignments for them that I either know already, or which I just need to make the mental association with a particular letter or number. That's not something you're going to get with another controller type without months or years of use.

Most people don't seem to get that, but with a stick, I get infinite control over where I want to go, the keyboard just doesn't allow that, no matter how familiar it is to you.

Another point in that is that I think having analog controls other than the stick is also important, which is why I like the XBox style gamepad, and is something I'm not seeing with the other left hand solutions pictured in this thread. I actually wish my gamepad had one more on the left, as the My Summer Car setup I wound up with was just about perfect other that the DPad being hard to reach thing I mentioned, and the lack of a second analog trigger for braking. Digital brakes are fairly intolerable.

I feel like the WASDIO would give you the same issues you said you had when using a flight stick.

Agreed. Doesn't really look very different from a standard joystick (or airplane throttle controller) to me.

[Niyu]

Sounds a bit of a circular argument to me: I like it, because I'm used to it.

I wasn't making a point, i was directly anwering the question. Stating that playing with a keyboard causes me no discomfort.

[Gilberreke]

I wasn't making a point, i was directly anwering the question. Stating that playing with a keyboard causes me no discomfort.

The point is not discomfort, the point is that a keyboard isn't analog, so it's inherently not capable of everything an analog controller can. We're getting deliberately dumbed down controls for PC games, because the keyboard can't handle them.

Digital brakes are fairly intolerable.

Yeah, I really like the analog triggers on the XBox controllers. I've been using them a bunch. I just ordered a Playstation Move Navigation Controller for $6 on Amazon, I'm hoping the trigger is analog. That G13 Kat linked also looks super promising. I might have to look into grabbing one. Not sure how ergonomic it is though, so I wouldn't spend top dollars on it.

I feel like the WASDIO would give you the same issues you said you had when using a flight stick.

Agreed. Doesn't really look very different from a standard joystick (or airplane throttle controller) to me.

There are big differences. You'd have to look up videos from the designers, but the fact that it's a palm stick and the way the spring is setup is just perfect for FPS-style movement. Airplane throttles obviously don't have 2 axes, only the one, or I'd just get one of those (and yeah, I did notice the resemblance, so I've looked into it). I don't think there are any palmsticks on the market with two axes, unfortunately.

Now to go google second hand G13's :)

[dawnraider]

I have a G13 as well and I love that thing. It's really nice having all the buttons line up vertically for gaming, and to have it actually properly shaped to your hand (I would definitely consider it pretty ergonomic in response to your concern, Gil). It also has space for extra buttons between WASD and the function keys, so I mapped M to one and J to the other (M for map in basically any game and J for journal in stuff like Fallout). Also the thumb buttons are nice, I have one mapped to enter and one to backspace, and the joystick I have as arrow keys so any controls I would need are in reach of my left hand.

For my mouse I have the Corsair M95, which has a bunch of buttons on the side. I just have those bound to the number keys for using items / switching gear / using abilities depending on the game. Also nice because it has a high DPI sensor (8200) so I can actually get it to what I use (I use 6600 DPI, and a lot of cheaper gaming mice only go up to 5400).

I also just use the Dualshock 4 from my PS4 for games like Dark Souls that have super shit M/K support.

I've never had an issue with the keyboard being analog, but I also don't play racing games / flight simulators or anything like that where you need analog input and I don't mind in FPS games.

[Gilberreke]

I've never had an issue with the keyboard being analog, but I also don't play racing games / flight simulators or anything like that where you need analog input and I don't mind in FPS games.

Have you tried playing FPS games with analog movement and a mouse or do you assume you don't mind, because you've never felt the urge? I'm just wondering, because you're the only one I know to own a G13 and I'd be interested in your opinion. If you ever feel like giving it a try with your G13, by mapping movement to the thumbstick, do tell us your thoughts on it, I'd be very interested :)

Unfortunately, I had a look and the G13 is very solidly out of my price range.

[MoRmEnGiL]

In most games I play, I actually only use my mouse :P I find myself much better at controlling the movements of an fps game with wasd than with a dpad on a controller, and as for analogue thumbsticks, I hate them with a passion. I avoid using them at all costs. You see, I like the binary nature of digital inputs. You either pressed it or you don't. They are precise. Analogue thumbstics require precision on the user's end, and that tires me a lot. Now, the last action game I played was back on the ps2, but if I had the option to use the dpad instead I always took it. I also find using analogue slows down quite a lot my already not stellar reactions. There is a big difference between hitting right in a dpad, then quickly up, down and right again in fractions of a second, and navigating those same directions all the way in analogue..

[Taleric]

I only recently got a thrustmaster HOTAS X to try simulation mod on warthunder. I can see why people shell out so much on input devices to have that operation quality to prevent frustration.

I have not tried many action games with analog controller but on the PS4. Everything works great for movement and good devs make a slick UI but the aim part of analog is just trash.

You feel like you are wearing oven mits while playing compared to the same first person on PC.

I just realized that is where anolog FPS and RPG have gone wrong. In a sim there are constant forces that require input to correct and ease onto the target. With PC FPS and RPG most all are locked to your aim point without feedback. Even sniper elite only sways when you zoom in and run out of breath.

There needs to be a FPS design that plays to an anolog controllers strengths. Possible I just have not seen all the recent FPS games too because it feels really obvious.

[dawnraider]

I've never had an issue with the keyboard being analog, but I also don't play racing games / flight simulators or anything like that where you need analog input and I don't mind in FPS games.

Have you tried playing FPS games with analog movement and a mouse or do you assume you don't mind, because you've never felt the urge? I'm just wondering, because you're the only one I know to own a G13 and I'd be interested in your opinion. If you ever feel like giving it a try with your G13, by mapping movement to the thumbstick, do tell us your thoughts on it, I'd be very interested :)

Unfortunately, I had a look and the G13 is very solidly out of my price range.

I tried it a few years ago using my friend's flight joystick for movement because I was actually considering exactly that and I wanted to see if it'd be an improvement. It was cool, but I felt it didn't really add too much. Yeah it's nice to be able to have analog movement but between the two I don't feel the analog offered significant improvement. But that's just personal preference, and I actually really like using a keyboard for gaming anyways so I'm sure that's part of it.

I've tried mapping movement to the thumbstick before on my G13, but I don't like it too much for a couple reasons:
1. Because of the location of the thumbstick, your thumb rests on it at an angle so it can be a little difficult to maintain smooth movement with it.
2. The resistance is a little high (which contributes to #1) so you have to use more force to move it than is convenient for something like movement (or anything that requires rapid change in input)
3. It's not analog anyways. There's a very distinct turn on point about halfway through moving the thumbstick with immediate movement and no difference until the edge.

That's why I have it bound to arrow keys, mainly for menu navigation where either the game doesn't have WASD support for menus, or where there are more than 4 buttons for menus (like the Fallout 4 Pip-Boy that uses WASD for the 2 layers of menus and arrows for the actual item navigation), because it's a lot better to used for individual button presses instead of something you hold and adjust.

I still love my G13 for the extra buttons and the better shape for my wrist, and it also lets me have my arms spaced evenly to either side (I like to keep my keyboard centered on the screen), but it's not going to revolutionize how games are played. It's basically just a different layout for keyboard input. If your issue with a keyboard for gaming is the feel of the keyboard the G13 may help (I definitely think it's a better experience) but if you don't like the digital input it won't offer an improvement.