Hodor!!!!! - Game of Thrones spoilers

[FlowerChild]

Holy crap. Just saw the latest episode of Game of Thrones and the whole Hodor thing threw me for a loop (time traveling pun intended).

So my question is this: do you guys think the author was planning this whole thing from the very beginning of the series, what amounts to thousands of pages back, or did he just write that whole thing afterwards, just using the established character attributes and working them into the scene?

Because, fuck me, if he planned all this from the start, it makes my head swim. I had a similar sensation a couple of episodes back when Jon Snow left the watch, because his watch came to an end with his death, but figured it may have just been coincidental that the vow was so prominently featured throughout the series. Now with this one though, I'm beginning to suspect that Martin may plan out everything in this kind of exacting detail right from the get go.

As an aside, I must say that it's nice to be watching the series and being surprised by it again, which hasn't been the case for me since the very first season. Ned Stark's execution in the series immediately inspired me to start reading the books, and I've been reading them ahead of the series ever since. Not being able to do so this time has me glued to the screen during these episodes :)

[Fret]

Caught me by suprise as well. Reading the books was really a double-edged sword.

This short video with the writers of the show suggests Martin did plan it ahead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Jsj9V_Aqg


I think it's really cool that he did. Especially because to me the episode suggested that the 'present day Bran' made 'Hodor from the past' get a stroke. However I do think that a writer can sort of easily plan these things out, because if the story goes a different way and it doesn't work as intended, no harm done. Just give Hodor a normal death and nobody would have noticed. Ofcourse this would only work for minor characters, not for a major character like John Snow.

Speaking of John's ressurection. I still feel like he should have gotten a hardcore spawn...

[Gilberreke]

I have a lot of theories about the series, I love theorycrafting with my girlfriend. Bran creating Hodor was one of em that came true (most don't of course :p). But holy shit, I never imagined that moment to be so powerful. I almost started crying.

This whole episode was insane from start to finish. The kingsmoot was insane, the scene between Daenerys and Jorah, the flashback to the creation of the first walker.

As for Martin's planning, I do assume that Hodor was written to have this moment from the start. Originally, Song of Ice and Fire was supposed to be a small trilogy of books, but Martin suddenly decided he wanted to write about some of the characters that he hadn't thought about, but doing so would require a few years to pass in the books. I think Bran's plot and Arya's plot are the main ones. The original plan was to have Daenerys cross the narrow sea with the Dothraki, the first time around. That's why we have her bumbling about Essos for so long now, because she's waiting for the plot to catch up to her. Same with the Lannisters in King's landing, the plot there is very strung together because they are waiting for Daenerys to cross the sea (though I have to admit that the recent High Sparrow plot feels very at home and the story would be less if we hadn't had that).

As for Jon, I assume the vow and his death were planned to come way sooner, but suddenly he was also put on hold and given some adventures to wait for Daenerys to be ready to cross (that's probably also why Ramsey was invented, to fill out the plot some more in the north). The padding in between caused recent events to be far removed from the original setup, making Martin seem genius (which he is of course), but I think it's more of a happy accident.

I assume this all means that Daenerys is indeed going to cross soon (she's got the originally planned Dothraki army back, there's suddenly a fleet for her to use, the High Sparrow plots seems about ready to resolve, Jon's plot is resolving).

Also, with the show doing Tower of Joy and RR Martin having said that Rhaegar is probably the most important character in the books in a way, I assume R plus L will indeed equal J.

BTW, while I do feel a lot of the plots to be padding, that doesn't mean I don't love the padding he's written. Sure, I feel like a lot of what Daenerys is doing is a bit sitcom-ish (in that her actions since the birth of the dragons don't really alter the status quo that much), but I love the stories and characters a lot.

HOLD THE DOOR!!!

[Gilberreke]

I just checked, Hodor's name was indeed planned from the start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Jsj9V_Aqg

[destineternel]

AAAAAHHHHHHH!!! This season is shaping up to be my favorite so far. But that moment when my brain realized what "Hold the door!" became....yup...

[FlowerChild]

C
I think it's really cool that he did. Especially because to me the episode suggested that the 'present day Bran' made 'Hodor from the past' get a stroke.

My theory on it is this: Bran couldn't get out of his vision from the past, so he went Warg on teenage Hodor, and attempted to control his actions in the present, based on what he was hearing of the situation from the screaming girl. So, he was basically sending signals to try and control Hodor's body through 30 or 40 years (or whatever the time frame was). In the process he occupied portions of Hodor's brain (like the speech center) with communicating those commands for the entire time in between, leaving only a small portion of Hodor's brain left to function on his present.

So, my theory isn't that he damaged Hodor's brain so much as he took over most of it for 30 years or so in order to do his bidding in those last few minutes, essentially turning his mind into a communication device. Personally, I find that thought even more depressing than him just causing a stroke or something ;)

AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!

Well said :)

[Gilberreke]

This episode is now my favorite episode of the show btw. Every little part of the episode was amazing.

[Fret]

So, my theory isn't that he damaged Hodor's brain so much as he took over most of it for 30 years or so in order to do his bidding in those last few minutes, essentially turning his mind into a communication device. Personally, I find that thought even more depressing than him just causing a stroke or something ;)

Well, I feel so much better now :)

This episode is now my favorite episode of the show btw. Every little part of the episode was amazing.

Totally agree with you. This episode (and this season in general as well) has so much mythology in it.

[FlowerChild]

This episode is now my favorite episode of the show btw. Every little part of the episode was amazing.

Yeah, agreed. The number of plot reveals in this episode had me scrambling to check if it was a season or mid-season finale or something. Looks like it wasn't, so I'm really intrigued to find out how on earth they're going to continue building up on this in weeks to come.

There were a lot of little details in it too, like Arya watching the play about her father's execution and so obviously not being "no one", that were quite touching.

[Gilberreke]

There were a lot of little details in it too, like Arya watching the play about her father's execution and so obviously not being "no one", that were quite touching.

Yes! Arya watching the play, the little tidbit about how the temple came about, her struggle with being "no one". Arya's part was the most low-key part of the episode and yet that was awesome.

What's really impressive is that this episode was basically a bunch of exposition and it was so exciting. I mean, there's a part with them explaining minor houses in the north with an actual map there, yet the pacing was perfect, the tension exciting. I think cutting Bran's part into two pieces framed the episode perfectly.

Can't wait for the rest of the season now :) (as if I could before)

[DaveYanakov]

That moment when someone you saw as a hero of the story turns out to be a monster. I started crying almost as soon as young Willis collapsed.

Even so, I couldn't help noticing the lack of music as the credits rolled. That was perfection of design.

[FlowerChild]

Even so, I couldn't help noticing the lack of music as the credits rolled. That was perfection of design.

Good point. It hadn't even occurred to me at the time, but you're absolutely right.

[Wafflewaffle]

I was always afraid the show was as good as its source material and that was it. It feels like this season is the showrunner's debutante ball, im fucking loving it!

The only gripe i have is how Euron Greyjoy is portrayed. In the books he's a misterious mystical badass with a slave boat and magic itens to show for his adventures. In the show he's a punk that pushed an old man down a bridge. I hope he develops into a more interesting char this season.

Ps. I was sad from the dog to hodor. When the screen went to black and there was this moment of complete silence, i cryed like a baby.

[FlowerChild]

I was always afraid the show was as good as its source material and that was it. It feels like this season is the showrunner's debutante ball, im fucking loving it!

Well, the show had already departed from the books in a few areas, like Mama Stark not being a zombie in the show, or Stansa not being the one that marries Bolton Bates. Honestly, before this season I thought that most of the places where they had departed from the books were actually better, so I had no complaints.

Regardless, I think they're still sticking fairly close to the source material, having consulted with Martin for this season as to where he's going with the next book. Like was mentioned above, the whole "Hold The Door" thing was his, and given it's one of the most powerful moments in the series (I think it's right up there with Ned's execution and the Red Wedding in terms of emotional impact), I think his source material is still an absolutely huge part of what makes the show great.

The only gripe i have is how Euron Greyjoy is portrayed. In the books he's a misterious mystical badass with a slave boat and magic itens to show for his adventures. In the show he's a punk that pushed an old man down a bridge. I hope he develops into a more interesting char this season.

Honestly, I don't even really remember him from the books, so I'm not sure if that reaction was universal. For some reason though, the Greyjoys never seem to really make a memorable impact on me, as like when the scene with the King's moot came up, I realized that I didn't even remember how it turned out in the books :)

I like the whole quasi-Cthulhu drowned god thing but for some reason those characters just don't seem to grab hold of me. Maybe it's because their philosophy is so utterly devoid of humanity that I find them incredibly hard to relate to. Like, obviously every house and faction in the series is questionable ethically, but I find the Greyjoys are even less sympathetic than the Lannisters, in a way that I find makes them rather two dimensional.

Yeah, I think that's it. Everything in these books is a shade of grey, which is one of the things I find so awesome about them. Even the Lannisters are fiercely loyal within their own family, as despicable as they can be to everyone else. The Iron Born though, just don't seem to have any positive attributes going for them, making them almost entirely black.

[Wafflewaffle]

Yeah, I think that's it. Everything in these books is a shade of grey, which is one of the things I find so awesome about them. Even the Lannisters are fiercely loyal within their own family, as despicable as they can be to everyone else. The Iron Born though, just don't seem to have any positive attributes going for them, making them almost entirely black.

This is actually one of the most interesting ways J.R.R.Martin portrays the clans in Game of Thrones. Every one has a defining characteristic and instance of impurity. The Starks are honorable but their leader has a bastard, a taint in their honor, the targaryen are conquerers but the taint of madness costs them their kingdom, the Lannisters are the richest clan but really have no gold at all. All these require action by the characters to correct the course. The search of redemption, of home and of power respectively.

This duality is what keeps things interesting and is the only thing that lacks in the Greyjoy. They are vikings that lack the very thing that made viking formidable. Vikings pillage, burn, kill and when there is nothing else to do... they stay! The nords were settlers, they took the land of others and made it theirs. The Greyjoy never settled. Even their rebellion was one of independence instead of subjugation. It just seems out of character of the house as a whole to try to conquer Westeros now instead of any other time. But then again they might be written this way to show how moving away from the course of the family results in disaster... we will see.

[FlowerChild]

This duality is what keeps things interesting and is the only thing that lacks in the Greyjoy.

Yeah, I was thinking of it a bit more, and there are certainly other black and white factions within the world, like the Boltons, or even the wights for that matter, but none of the others are really primary characters in the way the Greyjoys are. I think it's a combination of too prominent a role with too little depth.

[Wafflewaffle]

Yeah, I was thinking of it a bit more, and there are certainly other black and white factions within the world, like the Boltons, or even the wights for that matter, but none of the others are really primary characters in the way the Greyjoys are. I think it's a combination of too prominent a role with too little depth.

Like the Tully's and the Tyrel's. Its pretty clear how underdeveloped some of this houses are especially in contrast of the major more interesting ones.

[jorgebonafe]

Yes, this espisode was awesome. I didn't enjoy the previous season all that much, mostly because it felt like not much happened for some reason.. This one is like the opposite, so much is happening in so little time is hard to keep up. They also seem to be killing characters even more then they did before, which kinda bums me out. Stop killing all my favorite characters! Seriously, if they kill Arya I'll be done with this series...

Also, about that last scene, something else I thought was just great was that shot in the tunnels with all the zombies running and crawling after them, it was just beautiful, in the most horrifying way... It was a vision straight from hell.

[FlowerChild]

They also seem to be killing characters even more then they did before, which kinda bums me out. Stop killing all my favorite characters! Seriously, if they kill Arya I'll be done with this series...

Hehe...I'm the exact opposite: KILL ALL THE CHARACTERS!!!!! :)

One of the reasons I turned off of Turn (AMC's American revolutionary war show) was them wounding one of the major characters/villains, with a knife to the gut no less, and him just prancing about now as if nothing ever happened. I started to go that way with The Walking Dead as well, as up until very recently they'd practically gone the Star Trek red-shirt route in only killing off secondary characters.

There's little I hate more in shows than when they go the sitcom route and refuse to kill off characters. I absolutely revel in the way Martin kills off his characters left and right as a result. Heck, it's what got me reading the books after Ned Stark's execution in the first season. He was so brutal about it that it even shocked me despite my character-killing fetish, and he managed to do the same for me with the infamous Red Wedding.

If you're going to give everyone in your fictional world 5 foot long knives, there better damn well be blood and lots of it. Personally, I think Tyrion needs to be the next one to bite it, given everyone loves him the most, but on the other hand, I don't think that fits Martin's MO. My theory on it is that if there's any kind of underlying logic to who lives and dies, it's that both the truly good, and the truly evil, are the ones that get it, while Tyrion is right down the middle, so he manages to waltz through all this craziness unscathed. Nothing seems to get you killed faster in Westeros than being a passionate believer in one thing or another.

[Gilberreke]

That's why I stopped watching The Walking Dead in frustration after just a season, because I'm an avid fan of the comics and main characters fall like flies there (even more brutal than Game of Thrones I think), while the show went the red-shirts way.

I do have to admit that Theon's recent flip-flopping of character did make me like him more, the interaction between Theon and Jara at the Kingsmoot was glorious. The fact that the Greyjoys are now basically in full-on civil war does make me antsy to see more of them. They also kinda hand-waved the pure black of the Greyjoys being just the fact that their king was a dick and now that he's gone, they're going to be less evil (well, the ones that follow Theon/Jara at least). We'll see, maybe there's a silver lining.

[jorgebonafe]

My theory on it is that if there's any kind of underlying logic to who lives and dies, it's that both the truly good, and the truly evil, are the ones that get it

I suppose Ramsay is the exception that proves the rule then :)

I was recently catching up on TWD, up until

TWD Spoiler

Show

they shot Beth in the head

I'm taking a break now. I need time to mourn before I continue.

[Gilberreke]

I'm taking a break now. I need time to mourn before I continue.

Haha noob? :D (been a while since I used that one)

But yeah, I revel in character deaths too, the more the better. Also, the more important the character that dies and the more emotional it makes me, the higher the chance that I will put on another episode right after. I personally can't handle watching a character die and then put the series aside. So I guess we're polar opposites? :)

[jorgebonafe]

Probably. To be fair, I watched one more after that, but it was somehow even more depressing. Then I stopped :)

[Wafflewaffle]

I highly recommend fargo for anyone who likes to feel unsafe about their favorite characters and enjoys a good dose of moral ambiguity. Season 2 is out now and you dont "need" the first one, although its worth watching. Plus nick goddamn Offerman, my role model.

My theory on it is that if there's any kind of underlying logic to who lives and dies, it's that both the truly good, and the truly evil, are the ones that get it

I dont know man, as time goes on it is more and more clear even Martin has his favorites. The man does need someone be left to kill at the end of the books.

[FlowerChild]

I suppose Ramsay is the exception that proves the rule then :)

Hehe...well, he just hasn't gotten his yet. Jeoffrey lasted for several seasons too until his most satisfying death. I just realized that in addition to the shock of the hero deaths, I've felt a great deal of satisfaction at a couple of the villain deaths as well. Mr. Martin...you make good corpses.

But yeah, I think I'd rather deal with the white walkers than Ramsay. That guy is just plain creepy. Great villain.

I was recently catching up on TWD, up until

Hehe...and that was the moment that made me think "ok...maybe this isn't so bad after all" :)

The previous season I almost threw a fit when they had a flashback within a flashback within a flashback. The complete lack of forward progress in the show was replaced with them going further and further back in time with each episode for several weeks to the point where I could barely hear the zombies over my own grumblings ;)