Better Than Wolves Forum

Ok, so the past couple of releases I have made changes that will inevitably break people's builds, so I wanted to ask people how they're feeling about that.

Do the benefits outweigh the cost?

I decided to move ahead on these since it had been such a long time since previous updates that I suspected people would be more inclined to appreciate some rather fundamental gameplay changes than to be worried about their builds, but given how hesitant I am to make such changes in general, I wanted to get a sense for how people are reacting to it.

I also am asking because the changes I have planned for next are probably going to have the biggest impact of all in this regard. However, I also feel that they'll go a very long way in making BTW feel like a complete game from beginning to end.

Personally, I don't have an issue with it; I was planning to give the game a full run through when you put out a "complete" release anyway. While I'm certainly attached to my worlds, fixing builds can be fun and as long as it improves the game I think it's for the best in the long run. Do whatever makes the game better and I'll be happy.

This is a building game. If you break our builds, you are giving us a reason to rebuild, possibly with more efficient designs

You are improving the game and giving us new projects and problems to solve at the same time. I don't see a detriment to any of this

http://sargunster.com/btwforum/viewtopi ... 37#p104115

Remember when you added hardcore melons and you broke Six's plans to make a melon castle? You challenged Six, and Six was motivated to add supports to said melon castle plans

Palisight wrote: You are improving the game and giving us new projects and problems to solve at the same time. I don't see a detriment to any of this

Well, the main detriment I see is that at a certain point old worlds start to feel more "cheaty", inspiring people to restart. This happened quite a bit when I was on my hardcore rampage revamping the early game, and I feel kinda bad about starting that up again, especially considering I specifically said I wouldn't be :P

However, as I said, quite a bit of time has passed since then which is why I felt comfortable with the changes I've made so far. This next batch however, is pretty game changing which is why I wanted to get a feel for how people are feeling about it. These features though are stuff that's really been nagging at me the past few months as lingering items that I really wish I had addressed before calling BTW "complete".

I long ago decided that I would start a new and final world once you finished BTW, so build breakers are totally fine by me. Anything to make the experience even better! Fundamental gameplay changes sound exciting for sure. Though I've spent hundreds of hours in my current world and am attached to its history, at this point I am comfortable retiring it. I would rather be able to sink time into a new world with new features after BTW is done while I'm waiting for RTH. :)

Full speed ahead :D

Over the past year the changes have not crippled any builds that were not exploitative. Things like segregated housing for cattle, dogs and your portal are awesome changes to design around.

I am racking my head guessing what you spotted that feels wrong :P
Leather should be more difficult to obtain, took it for granted up till now.

When I think of build breaking changes that would be undesired random buoyancy and/or filtering changes are all I can think of that would really wreck complex builds.

i may not understand what you mean by build breaking in the last versions.
i do have an unconventional playstyle in btw as i rush towards steel from day one. my enjoyment comes from building things. be they big fields, roads or towns and most are made after steel is online. i don't mind at all breaking my buildings as i break them myself often to add improve them aesthetically.

I am all for adding new stuff so in my opinion, Break away!
I have no problem rebuilding things to take into account new changes.
I plan on making a fresh world when you "complete" BTW anyway so all this current play is training. :)

I can't really give you a solid yes or no without knowing what I'm agreeing to.

Going by the previous pattern- the world resets didn't really feel unnatural or forced. I felt your updates followed a fairly smooth transition that allowed players to switch over in their own time.
If its something thats nagging you, and it makes the game feel complete- then you should do it. The long term improvement would outweigh short term losses.
Likewise it'll hopefully give you that peace of mind knowing you've made Better than Wolves a completed game that delivers the experience you wanted it to give.

To me it depends entirely if you break something you added in with BTW or something from vanilla. Most of my builds and automation are centered around BTW mechanics. So hopefully they should be fine.

sacrife wrote:To me it depends entirely if you break something you added in with BTW or something from vanilla. Most of my builds and automation are centered around BTW mechanics. So hopefully they should be fine.

Not sure I see what difference that makes given the two are so intertwined at present.

Also there's the way that with previous hardcore changes the fact that pre-hardcore resources had been accumulated is what felt so cheaty. The more recent changes, not so much.

In the end, a broken build is just one more project to look forward to and reason to load up my save. And there's the fact that this is your game that you are creating for your own needs and sharing with us because you want to. If a change means that the game is more of what you envisioned and just happens to cost some people a couple hours of work, I'd say it's worth it.

DaveYanakov wrote:Also there's the way that with previous hardcore changes the fact that pre-hardcore resources had been accumulated is what felt so cheaty. The more recent changes, not so much.

In the end, a broken build is just one more project to look forward to and reason to load up my save. And there's the fact that this is your game that you are creating for your own needs and sharing with us because you want to. If a change means that the game is more of what you envisioned and just happens to cost some people a couple hours of work, I'd say it's worth it.

Exactly, the change to hardcore villagers made people (well at least me) want to restart because they had steel without killing the wither and dragon. Other changes had people want to restart because they couldn't have that many brewing stands naturally.

The main breaking change to me recently is the hardcore hunger for wolves. But that doesn't have the same feel because players **could have** been feeding their wolves continuously, even if they weren't actually doing it, and if they failed to build up the infrastructure to do that already then the game will punish them fairly by killing their wolves. It has it's own way of distinguishing those who deserve to be at that stage and those that don't.

I'm not sure there is always a solution like that which can have a breaking change that rights itself in our minds, but that one worked really well for me, especially since we had a bit of a buffer so I could start dumping spare food into my wolf feeder until I got it running smoothly.

Hmm, I don't care much about build breakers. A slight warning might be in order though, for a release that contains build breakers, so people can back up the world in case something horrible happens.

Like Dave said though, I feel we're all just along for the ride, and you haven't disappointed me yet :)

In most cases, I'd say no, but I trust you. You're not going to add something that is unavoidable, or based entirely in chance, it's going to be something we can prevent, something to keep in mind for all our future builds. Bring it on :)