Hardcore Hell Balance Discussion

[FlowerChild]

Hey guys, I'd be very interested in hearing your experiences with hardcore hell, and how it feels to you. I tried to playtest it as much as possible, but it's the kind of thing that likely needs many hands banging away at it under many different circumstances.

Too easy? Too hard? Let me know how you're finding it, but please keep it polite. I'm asking this because I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions on this one, so there's really no need to freak out or overstate your point to get it across.

[caveatEmptor]

In my most recent world I had barely explored the nether before this update. I had only gone in to get some netherrack for my cauldron and some glowdust for my hemp farm before reading about your plans to increase the nether difficulty, so I decided to stay out til now.

Anyway, when I went through my portal I ended up having to make a second one in the nether just twenty blocks away, because the first didn't quite link up to my overworld base. The first thing I did was encase my first portal in cobblestone, so that I had somewhere safe to stay. The portal was located by a lava lake so it was somewhat open to ghast fire, although there were none around when I first went through. By the time I'd finished building the first enclosure, a couple had spawned and were shooting at me. I had rotted arrows but it was so hard to hit them from so far away I wasted like twenty and only killed one of them. At that distance it was easy enough to dodge the fireballs but I was worried the craters it was making would meet up with the lava lake and make a huge mess, so I retreated back to the first portal and just tunneled to the location of the second one.

After that I went back to make some proper arrows, came back and explored for a while, both just on the surface and in a nether fortress over the lava. I feel like about half the time, or maybe a little more, I was being fired on by one ghast. If it was far away I just kept moving rather than waste arrows, and if it was close I'd shoot it down. Most of the rest of the time I could hear them but none had the line of sight to shoot me. Every now and then I'd be in the situation of two shooting at me, which I learned to just hunker down somewhere until one left, or until I could isolate one and kill it. Fighting two is much more dangerous than one- with one ghast, you can wait til he shoots, move out of the way, and shoot back. With two, the slowed movement speed while drawing the bow combined with the improved accuracy of ghasts means taking the time to shoot back is very risky.

All in all I would say ghasts are a more constant presence, unlike before where you could wander the surface for minutes without being fired on once. But it's not as hard as I was expecting it to be- I expected to be dodging fireballs like crazy when outside, but like I said I found that usually I could see one most of the time and two or none a bit less frequently. So if anything I'd say there's room to increase the difficulty. Random spawns being what they are though maybe my experience isn't representative. I'll post again if I find my experience any different in the future.

[FlowerChild]

It's possible it is too low. I tweaked the values downwards during some of my playtesting, and I'm not quite certain it's enough, but I also didn't want to pump it higher without some feedback and without time to test it further myself.

Previous values (which is what I tested it the most on) hardly let you stick your head above ground at all without it getting blown off and at a certain point even I decided it was too much. Seems like I may need something in the middle to hit the final balance.

Thanks for taking the time to post the above. Keep in mind that the big bottle-neck in the tech tree with the nether is getting blaze rods for your Hibachi, so if at some point you make it there, feel free to let me know what the experience of finding one and getting back was like.

[Taleric]

Spent some time nether roaming and ghasts can no longer be ignored. You can still dodge but must pay attention. The accuracy is enought to wreck your paths if you don't reinforce them. Another great change to incentivise building!

I like to give a test of new features on a fresh world. Turns out changes are getting too far up the tech tree for a quick run... Will have to see how rotted/regular arrows and iron/leather armor lets you tackle the ghasts. Composite bow feels like vMC ghast killing.

[FlowerChild]

Going to bump this, as I could really use some feedback on this before next release guys. Anyone have some nether experiences to share?

[JesterxMailMan89]

I was tackling a Blaze Spawner in the nether today and in the process I was running around outside in preparation to box it in. Even though I later noticed a slight increase in the number of Ghasts, and at one point actually got hit by one, I honestly forgot Hardcore Hell was added. That could be due to my focus on another project, but it took a while for me to even realize it was there. I was around before the Halloween Update, and the tunneling instinct is definitely coming back, but Id thought Id share this. In its current state, it seems to me running around is still a viable option, you just have to keep on the move and be more vigalent. Personally, I always thought the tunneling instinct went away simply because the Nether wasn't the "Unknown" anymore, but the recent changes definitely bring back that instinct. Lookin forward to havin a fortress in the nether again :) Well, once I get back to my base, dang Blazes...

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I think the impression I'm getting overall is that it's just too weak at present both from what has been said, and what has not been said (as I take that as an indication that people haven't noticed much of a difference), and my own experiences. I've boosted the numbers for next release as a result, and we'll see how that works out. I can always do another round of tweaking if it's still off.

The challenge here is the balance between making ghast spawning fair in not having it occur too close to the player, particularly when they first enter the nether, in combination with it occurring in sufficient numbers to up the difficulty as play proceeds. Might take a few rounds of tweaking as a result to hit the sweet spot.

[SerraNova]

Two of us were working on a pigman trap before the changes, and we've spent a fair amount of time there since. Ghasts' improved aim makes them much tougher to fight, so I'm burning a lot more, but, since we had potions already, I've only died once and come pretty close another couple of times. We found that if you are agressive about shooting them right away before the numbers build up, then it's possible to hang around outside. It definitely feels more dangerous, but we're not cowering in a tunnel yet. Personally, I like it this way. :)

Oh, and it caused me to improve my bow and arrow tech, yay!

[jorgebonafe]

I wonder if its too hard to make Ghasts actually shoot where you are running to instead of straight at you... That would make things interesting when dealing with them...

[FlowerChild]

I wonder if its too hard to make Ghasts actually shoot where you are running to instead of straight at you... That would make things interesting when dealing with them...

Surprised I have to say this but: No suggestions please man. I've already considered that, and it's a mixed bag gameplay wise for various reasons I'd rather not get into.

[jorgebonafe]

Sorry about that. I had a lapse...

[FlowerChild]

We found that if you are agressive about shooting them right away before the numbers build up, then it's possible to hang around outside.

Yup, and that's definitely an aspect that I want, which is another reason for the spawn distance change. If the player makes an effort to clear an area of ghasts, it should remain that way at least temporarily before new ones move into range.

[FlowerChild]

Sorry about that. I had a lapse...

No worries. Something like that is just basic trig and a staple of many games, so you can be certain I considered it while tweaking them ;)

[caveatEmptor]

Oh, and it caused me to improve my bow and arrow tech, yay!

I wanted to add that I also was compelled by the recent changes to rethink my arrow production and usage. It used to be that I could rely on my supply of saved rotted arrows from the early game to get me through my nether expedition, all the way to getting my first hibachi most times. But now the nerf to rotted arrows and buff to ghast spawn and health has made the regular kind much more desirable and even necessary (I ran out of rotted arrows pretty quickly this game), and the reduced yield on the recipe for making arrows has made me increase the size of my chicken farm past what I needed for food, just so I could get more arrows for another expedition. In fact I took to using a recently added feature to improve my arrow supply:

Spoiler

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Chickens who explode from portal exposure seem to give more feathers than chickens killed normally. I'm not totally familiar with the BTW tech tree so maybe there is another way to increase feather production available, but for now I've taken to killing my chickens via explosion. I lose the meat but I don't really need that at this point anyway. Plus I really love the explosion effect.

Not strictly a hardcore hell balance thing but I thought I'd let you know that I have changed my playstyle in this sense at least.

[jorgebonafe]

LOL!

Transport the eggs from the healthy chicken farm all the way to the corrupted farm.... Making a full auto exploding chicken farm has become one of my future goals. Thanks for the awesome idea.

[FlowerChild]

Errrr...ok, the increased feather output wasn't intended, but that *is* rather amusing. Will think on it :)

Somehow it fits...

"What's the best way to hatch a chicken?"

"Throw it against a wall!"

"What's the best way to pluck a chicken?"

"Blow it up!"

;)

[jorgebonafe]

Errrr...ok, the increased feather output wasn't intended, but that *is* rather amusing. Will think on it :)

Aww.. Ah, its fine even if you nerf it. Just having a never ending stream of exploding chicken is reason enough to make this farm XD

[FlowerChild]

See my edit above...it really is tempting and rather BTW :)

It does require an additional automation step (isolated chickens laying eggs then hatched near a portal) so I'm certainly cool with it gameplay wise.

It just hadn't occurred to me that exploding chickens were still using the old feather drop numbers, but it may be a happy coincidence. Will think on it more.

[caveatEmptor]

Yeah, the first time I upgraded to hardcore nothing to worry about, my chicken coop and portal were all together in my smallish cave base, so I had a front row seat to the first one going boom. My first thought was "Holy crap, that chicken just exploded," followed by, "Hey, he dropped four feathers." Although it's not really logical (where do the extra feathers come from?), I assumed it was intentional considering that you forfeit the meat, and I did not want to check to see if anyone else said something about it on the nether animals thread to avoid spoiling myself on the other changes.

Well whether you end up deciding to keep it or not, it was a good excuse to have some fun with the new effects :)

[FlowerChild]

All right, new release with new ghast numbers. Please keep the feedback coming guys :)

[TheGatesofLogic]

I'm terrified. nuff said