New Release! (BTW V4.89)

[Thalarctia]

I love how hunting creepers is now also an alternative source of food, should one be desperate enough :)

[CreeperCannibal]

Thanks for this one FC :) those furnace changes came just in time with my first ever tree farm and auto wood mill. I've never understood why notch allowed the furnace to "smelt" non metal ores. Also, creepers will now be "trimmed" before death in my mob trap. Green Sizzling Oysters FTW

Edit: Creeper castration has made my day. I can't stop laughing.

[utakataJ6]

To steal a Malcolm Gladwell parody, Mr Creeper, "I believe we have reached the Snipping Point."

Also, though the last release thread was locked before I could mention it, the Charlie reference was clever.

I must ask however, while I don't a all mind the preference, I'm curious why you want to discourage the nomadic beginning?

[FlowerChild]

I must ask however, while I don't a all mind the preference, I'm curious why you want to discourage the nomadic beginning?

Not discourage really, but more balance it a little more so that the choice between going nomadic and settling has more pros and cons.

I think many are still misinterpreting or misrepresenting a nomadic lifestyle as *the* way to play the early game, and frankly, that's just setting new players up for pain and wandering aimlessly to find villages before you need them. It's also setting them up to have to restart entirely from scratch if they die along the way, as it will likely be hell to find where it occurred if you just wander off from original spawn, and to make next to no progress in the actual tech tree.

I feel the player should thus have a few gentle nudges along the way to settle down as a result, and to highlight it as a perfectly viable option. Settling has its own difficulties such as dealing with the slowly depleting food supply in a single area, so I'd like it to have a few more early game advantages as well.

Also, carrying around a furnace on your back instead of creating a permanent installation for it gets under my skin a wee bit. If anything in the early game deserves a more permanent solution, I think that's it. If this latest change doesn't do it, I may pursue other options to correct that, and in the process at least encourage the creation of more permanent small shelters even if you are wandering, and to thus put a little more care into their construction if you think you may be using them again in the future.

[Retsamassa455]

Also, carrying around a furnace on your back instead of creating a permanent installation for it gets under my skin a wee bit. If anything in the early game deserves a more permanent solution, I think that's it. If this latest change doesn't do it, I may pursue other options to correct that, and in the process at least encourage the creation of more permanent small shelters even if you are wandering, and to thus put a little more care into their construction if you think you may be using them again in the future.

Heh, heh...I'm glad your starting to see things my way ;). I knew when making the suggestion, that even if it wasn't accepted outright, at least I would be planting a seed for the problems eventual solution, and it seems I was right in that. Also, I love the smelting changes, it always bothered me that there was essentially no difference between smelting ore and cooking pork.

[FlowerChild]

Heh, heh...I'm glad your starting to see things my way ;). I knew when making the suggestion, that even if it wasn't accepted outright, at least I would be planting a seed for the problems eventual solution, and it seems I was right in that.

I don't remember your suggestion man, so it's likely I was already thinking about this at the time.

Part of the reason why I don't like suggestions in general is that they have a tendency to reflect my own ideas where something obvious is concerned, as I describe in my LP with Icy.

The inevitable "that was my idea!" when I do something is also groan inducing and a motivation killer. Remember, as someone who primarily considers themselves a designer, and thus an "idea man", a lot of my joy in making the mod involves coming up with solutions and then making them a reality. Just implementing other people's ideas bores the shit out of me.

[MoRmEnGiL]

So, soon furnaces will drop only a couple of cobble when broken eh? :P

But seriously, I agree, the feeling of being (presumably) forced to wander around and not set up a permanent base does not sit well with me. I think getting established is pretty much a better way to go about it, but that's just me. Longer smelt times definitely go a long way towards that, so good thinking.

[FlowerChild]

So, soon furnaces will drop only a couple of cobble when broken eh? :P

Jesus man...what did I just say?

[Shengji]

I think many are still misinterpreting or misrepresenting a nomadic lifestyle as *the* way to play the early game, and frankly, that's just setting new players up for pain and wandering aimlessly to find villages before you need them.

I feel I should apologise for that - I enjoyed the new challenge you brought to that style of play so much that I was all over the boards talking quite passionately about it, I almost certainly contributed a great deal towards this confusion :(

In other news my graphic card has died after only 2 years and my biggest frustration is not getting to play this release. It all sounds fantastic though, but it will be a month before I get to play!!!

[milkmandan]

Sounds awesome.

I think this will definitely make an autokiln be the go to for me for those first 2 block dispensers.

All the latest updates definitely seem to be putting the mine back in Minecraft. Particularly the redstone changes. I'm getting to automation point and I'm having to balance redstone cost for everything and it's urging me back to the depths.

[FlowerChild]

I think this will definitely make an autokiln be the go to for me for those first 2 block dispensers.

All the latest updates definitely seem to be putting the mine back in Minecraft. Particularly the redstone changes. I'm getting to automation point and I'm having to balance redstone cost for everything and it's urging me back to the depths.

That's excellent news on both counts man, as it means I'm successfully hitting some of my design targets.

At present, I'm largely satisfied with the early game (still a few tweeks here and there obviously), and focusing more on the mid to late to get the "old BTW" (all the late game tech stuff that used to largely define the mod) to fit better with the "new BTW" (the more survival oriented early game stuff) and create a smoother progression as you move up the tech tree.

So stuff like the Kiln being a more attractive option and the player feeling a real in-game desire to start automating is exactly what I'm shooting for there. At a certain point, the gameplay transitions from survival into automation and tech, and I'm trying to ease the player into that through real in game needs instead of just trusting that they'll feel like automating once they get to that stage.

I think at present the transition is a bit too jarring and leaves players with the sensation they've "beat" BTW after they get through the survival portion, and are left with nothing to do, whereas long term players of the mod already know it's just the beginning.

[FlowerChild]

I feel I should apologise for that - I enjoyed the new challenge you brought to that style of play so much that I was all over the boards talking quite passionately about it, I almost certainly contributed a great deal towards this confusion :(

Nah, no worries man. I think people are assuming that based on the "must find wheat!" vanilla impulse more than anything else. It's an interesting design problem particular to modding when you're trying to counteract people's preconceived notions of how the game plays. I don't think I've run into that before.

In other news my graphic card has died after only 2 years and my biggest frustration is not getting to play this release. It all sounds fantastic though, but it will be a month before I get to play!!!

Doh! That's bad news for me as well considering how much I value your input :)

[jakerman999]

I think people are assuming that based on the "must find wheat!" vanilla impulse more than anything else. It's an interesting design problem particular to modding when you're trying to counteract people's preconceived notions of how the game plays. I don't think I've run into that before.

I'm still by and large learning the subtleties of design, but something my other favourite designer says quite frequently is that it's futile to fight human nature. While it might not be instinctual that players search for wheat, it is a very heavily ingrained learned behaviour. Getting rid of this behaviour is going to very much be an uphill battle until something really drives home the point that BTW is no longer the same game as Minecraft.

You mentioned a short while ago that the number of people who BTW is for is shrinking, and I think by and large that's because it's still perceived as a mod for minecraft, despite the total conversion label. I know that you design to make the best possible game that you can and not to make the most popular one, so I don't know if you perceive this to be a problem or not.

[FlowerChild]

You mentioned a short while ago that the number of people who BTW is for is shrinking, and I think by and large that's because it's still perceived as a mod for minecraft, despite the total conversion label. I know that you design to make the best possible game that you can and not to make the most popular one, so I don't know if you perceive this to be a problem or not.

I wouldn't say it's shrinking. What I said is that for some people that enjoyed it before, it's no longer really for them.

The new hardcore nature has actually attracted an entirely different crowd that may have not been into it before. We see this in multiple areas like some of the new video series that are popping up.

And no, I don't care :)

I spent my career in the game industry trying to cater to the mass-market (aka "lowest common denominator"). Modding affords me the freedom to design the games *I* want to make, and I'm willing to trade the relatively big bucks of being a professional for precisely that.

So, as a result, I think you can see why most complaints are met with "go fuck yourself". If I'm not willing to do it for many more tens of thousands each year, I'm definitely not willing to do it because it offends somebody's desires for what they want out of a game.

[DreamsofFury]

Meh, I just ran into my first and so far only "I HATE THIS" moment, but its not directly mod related regardless of the fact its part of this release, having dyscalculia makes it a pain to keep track of the smelt times per item per fuel.....most of my frustration is stemed from just not having a solid reference yet. I might just give in and use birch for all my furnace needs due to I think somewhere you said its the best.....

Otherwise lovin this release so far, havent had a chance to use my shears just yet....I still don't feel safe, but I'll get there.


Edit:grammatical error.

[Mr_Hosed]

About the release, creepers + shears... yeah, that's epic to put it bluntly (no pun intended) =)

[FlowerChild]

Meh, I just ran into my first and so far only "I HATE THIS" moment, but its not directly mod related regardless of the fact its part of this release, having dyscalculia makes it a pain to keep track of the smelt times per item per fuel.....most of my frustration is stemed from just not having a solid reference yet. I might just give in and use birch for all my furnace needs due to I think somewhere you said its the best.....

Keep in mind: smelting can always come down to "throw shit in the furnace until it's done", much as you would with a "real" fire.

You want to get precise, then yes, you'll have to do the math.

[DreamsofFury]

Keep in mind: smelting can always come down to "throw shit in the furnace until it's done", much as you would with a "real" fire.

Thats kinda what I'm resorting to doing at this point but I'm trying to figure it out to a minimalist point to reduce waste now, I think I'll just for now give up on exact until the woman lans up with me again and ends up figuring it out as a new challenge.

Yay being lazy lol.

[FlowerChild]

Thats kinda what I'm resorting to doing at this point but I'm trying to figure it out to a minimalist point to reduce waste now, I think I'll just for now give up on exact until the woman lans up with me again and ends up figuring it out as a new challenge.

Yay being lazy lol.

There's always a choice between optimal and just getting shit done man. If you screw up, how long will it take you to chop the wood to compensate for it?

[DreamsofFury]

how long will it take you to chop the wood to compensate for it?

After the future forest I just planted in a nearby plains biome.....not long at all. But I see your point and in this regard I shall just choose to "get shit done" instead.

[FlowerChild]

Word. I don't even always calculate it myself, just throw shit in the furnace and get it done :)

[jakerman999]

I wouldn't say it's shrinking. What I said is that for some people that enjoyed it before, it's no longer really for them.

The new hardcore nature has actually attracted an entirely different crowd that may have not been into it before. We see this in multiple areas like some of the new video series that are popping up.

That's good news indeed, puts a very different spin on things than the somber tone I had read the other thread in.

And no, I don't care :)

I spent my career in the game industry trying to cater to the mass-market (aka "lowest common denominator"). Modding affords me the freedom to design the games *I* want to make, and I'm willing to trade the relatively big bucks of being a professional for precisely that.

So, as a result, I think you can see why most complaints are met with "go fuck yourself". If I'm not willing to do it for many more tens of thousands each year, I'm definitely not willing to do it because it offends somebody's desires for what they want out of a game.

Oh, I knew you didn't care about the popularity. You've always strived to make Better Than Wolves great for the games sake, rather than great for any particular market. It's by and large the main reason I'm a fan, because it's real game design not marketing. I was curious more so to whether people were perceiving BTW as it is now to not be it's own game, and be stuck(subconsciously) as if they were still in a modified vanilla to be a problem.

[FlowerChild]

I was curious more so to whether people were perceiving BTW as it is now to not be it's own game, and be stuck(subconsciously) as if they were still in a modified vanilla to be a problem.

Yeah, I think that's definitely true to a certain extent, and hopefully something I can get away from by making a game from scratch. It's like the thing I mentioned above about people's preconceived notions of how MC is played, and thus immediately trying to find wheat for food, except at a rather larger scale in terms of the kind of gameplay experience they are expecting overall.

Although, you see it in a lot of indie game efforts these days IMO. Like, I've been following the Timber & Stone boards, and while the guy is obviously trying to make a very specific game, you have fans constantly going on about "but I want to play this kind of game" and thus asking for options that are tailored to their particular expectations for what they want the game to be. Just sitting on the side-lines, and not really interacting with the developer or the community, I can kinda get the sense that his motivation may be being sapped as a result.

I'm not really sure if there's anything that can be done about that other than being willing to say "fuck off". The danger being that if you try to cater to all those individual desires, you'll wind up with a lot of watered down crap rather than a single focused and well developed gameplay experience.

[Fret]

Meh, I just ran into my first and so far only "I HATE THIS" moment, but its not directly mod related regardless of the fact its part of this release, having dyscalculia makes it a pain to keep track of the smelt times per item per fuel.....most of my frustration is stemed from just not having a solid reference yet. I might just give in and use birch for all my furnace needs due to I think somewhere you said its the best.....

Otherwise lovin this release so far, havent had a chance to use my shears just yet....I still don't feel safe, but I'll get there.


Edit:grammatical error.

Oh wow, had never thought this could be a problem for some people. You should put signs above your furnaces and write down anything you discover. I myself tend to struggle to remember redstone related tricks, how to build flipflops for example. So whenever I discover something I make a written book or build a meaningless flipflop somewhere in my base. When my base can support me, I plan on building a university, where I can do research and store this information. There are many easy ngame solutions to support you!

[PatriotBob]

...
When my base can support me, I plan on building a university, where I can do research and store this information. There are many easy ngame solutions to support you!

It's this sort of in-game gameplay mechanics that I wish more games did. And to a good extent what I love about Better than Wolves. It solves problems with in-game solutions, sometimes even meta-game problems are solved in-game. Which is just amazing for game play because it keeps you there, in game.

I really wish we had some driving mechanic to archive our learned knowledge into libraries. But then again... the Infernal Enchanter kinda does that. :) Minecraft after all is at it's core a building game. So the more things you can do to incentivize (is that right?) building the better. And FC has been great about giving us things like that. Road, mob traps, satellite bases (HCS).