Hardcore Spawn is finished

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PatriotBob
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Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by PatriotBob »

That's it.
But before we go off the deep end about how this kill coop play, or something about a girlfriend and a cave... try to look at it this way.

Your reaction to this change, is roughly the same as to when hardcore spawn was first added. Or hardcore buckets. But look at each of those changes, hell look at every hardcore * change put in the mod. Just last week people were saying how night and day the mod is from vanilla or even BTW a year ago. How it's the only way to play Minecraft now. Do you honestly think the mind behind Better than Wolves would just take a giant shit all over that hard work?

I look at how this mod has progressed in just the last six months, and it's amazing. It is the only way I can play Minecraft now. And if you don't like the change and feel it's too much, then take a little break. A good number of people did when the hardcore changes were first put in. FlowerChild is polishing and finishing Better than Wolves. Come back in a few weeks, or a month and take a look at it then. I think you might find your reaction to this change to be a lot like those first changes.

As for me, I'll be enjoying trying out the new changes.
In SMP.
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Great release FlowerChild, don't let them get you down.
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Jesar
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Jesar »

Ninja, I just made a similar thread. I agree completely, and regret not getting in the release thread before it was locked.
TimberPuncher
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by TimberPuncher »

PatriotBob wrote:That's it.
But before we go off the deep end about how this kill coop play, or something about a girlfriend and a cave... try to look at it this way.

Your reaction to this change, is roughly the same as to when hardcore spawn was first added. Or hardcore buckets. But look at each of those changes, hell look at every hardcore * change put in the mod. Just last week people were saying how night and day the mod is from vanilla or even BTW a year ago. How it's the only way to play Minecraft now. Do you honestly think the mind behind Better than Wolves would just take a giant shit all over that hard work?

I look at how this mod has progressed in just the last six months, and it's amazing. It is the only way I can play Minecraft now. And if you don't like the change and feel it's too much, then take a little break. A good number of people did when the hardcore changes were first put in. FlowerChild is polishing and finishing Better than Wolves. Come back in a few weeks, or a month and take a look at it then. I think you might find your reaction to this change to be a lot like those first changes.

As for me, I'll be enjoying trying out the new changes.
In SMP.
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Great release FlowerChild, don't let them get you down.


Well, first off, I don't think many are "bitching" about the option to make Hardcore Spawn non-optional anymore.
I think it's more of a concern on what this will do to friends who like to play with other friends, or in some cases girlfriends :)
and of course, team projects.

What I don't like is remembering how FC said something along the lines of, " The option will always be there man, it's not like I'm going to remove it.

Nothing will stop you from enjoying the mod in a more relaxed setting, just as long as you remember to be nice to your girlfriend so she doesn't have a ballista pointed at you when you return to your cave :) "

The above is what FC actually said. Now he goes back on his word. It's not that we don't appreciate his hard work, or his efforts, I just personally think that Hardcore Spawn shouldn't be 'forced' upon us.
Mr_Hosed
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Mr_Hosed »

Yeah, was rather a shame really (the wall of complaints). I'd guess people were expecting a solution that was lower in the progression tree, which is why they're complaining. I personally thought his solution was going to be along the lines of forcing your coop partner to commit hari-kari to respawn at the new location if you wanted to continue playing together. Just struck me as a demented design he'd come up with.

<shrug> I'm indifferent since I abandoned MP play a LONG time ago and if I get frustrated with HCS (it's happened) I'm not above hacking my respawn point.

@FC Since I didn't get to post it in the release thread, thank you for your continued generosity in updating BTW.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by FlowerChild »

TimberPuncher wrote: Well, first off, I don't think many are "bitching" about the option to make Hardcore Spawn non-optional anymore.
I think it's more of a concern on what this will do to friends who like to play with other friends, or in some cases girlfriends :)
and of course, team projects.
Hey Rawny, guess you're continuing the trend of stupidity.

There's no "word" here. Where did you dig that post up? 6 months to a year ago when the mod was a completely different creature? At the time, did I think I'd be removing the option? No, obviously not, as it didn't make much sense *at that time*.

No promises were made or broken. No lies were told. I made a simple statement that I had no intent to do so, because I didn't. That's it.

If I were to adhere to every such statement I ever made, I could not effectively design the mod. The mod has changed. My views on it have changed. The decisions I make now reflect what it is, not what it WAS all that time ago.

In short: don't be a fucking retard.
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PatriotBob
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by PatriotBob »

TimberPuncher wrote:-SNIP-
I mean I get it, I play with my wife on a local server from time to time. And to be nice, she's not exactly on the ball as to the fundamentals half the time. But to be honest, surviving is rarely an issue. On average I can usually keep us both alive up until the nether, at which point... we have this soul sand piles mechanic.

I guess what I don't get is that before you just disabled HCS, now you just use the /tp command. There's not a whole lot of difference.
/tp PatriotBob 0 0 0
Is pretty much no HCS. The only difference is by removing the config option, it feels a whole lot more like cheating.

But if I'm playing a casual game with my wife... the occasional /tp isn't terrible.

Edit: Well I guess I was dumb for hoping to start a more "positive" thread on the subject...
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DreamsofFury
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by DreamsofFury »

I'm delaying my own update due to LPing with the girlfriend, but once the rest of my crew gets their comps and nets going we are all updating and doing a big LP recording session with all of us recording....then proceeding to ship me all of their footage so I can edit in all the interesting bits lol.

So my next LP series looks to be a dam good one thanks to these changes.
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MrLemon
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by MrLemon »

The way I see it, playing with someone else like that is, in many ways, a meta-game problem, which requires a meta-game solution. There's not anyway that I could think of that would guarantee you playing with someone else constantly and not trivialize death, and also make sense with the games physics.

I haven't played the new relapse yet but from what I understand, the new change seems to simply sacrifice constant play with someone else for realism. In my opinion, realism is more important than supporting what is essentially an optional mode of play. (Something which FC obviously isn't a big fan of)
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by FlowerChild »

PatriotBob wrote: I guess what I don't get is that before you just disabled HCS, now you just use the /tp command. There's not a whole lot of difference.
/tp PatriotBob 0 0 0
Is pretty much no HCS. The only difference is by removing the config option, it feels a whole lot more like cheating.
Exactly, and that's really the point isn't it? Someone asked me on IRC the other day if it was "cheating" in BTW for him to just be respawning over and over at his spawn base because he kept dying with HC Spawn turned off.

I of course answered that it was, as I suspect most would here, because BTW has developed in a direction where it has become a fundamental part of the experience especially in the early game.

I've mentioned time and time again over the past while that I wanted to axe the option. Over the past few releases, I put in the work to make sure it was fully polished before doing so, with stuff like morning respawns in SSP, and now this new functionality for SMP.

There is now an in-game progression within co-op play to slowly working your way up to the point where HC Spawn is no longer an issue, all the way from building land marks and roads, to "rescuing" each other through the use of the new mechanic, all the way up to SFS beacons. The players slowly gain mastery over it through their in-game efforts. I almost cheaped out in the final stretch of development here and just made it a console command through the team thing for the sake of expediency, but unable to bring myself to do that, I instead went the extra mile and turned it into an actual part of *gameplay*.

Now, if you ask me, just basically teleporting to other players to skip over that progression, even if that was through the team-based mechanic I had mentioned, IS cheating as it skips over a big part of the progression for the sake of convenience thus removing much of the impact of death that I've been working so hard to reintroduce back into the game, and with zero in-game justification for why that's happening. Whether you do that or not is of course up to you, but what I've done now is simply label it for precisely what it is.

It's cheating. If you want to play with a BTW noob, and need to cheat some to keep them entertained, then sure, go for it, but please don't expect me to water down the overall experience for the sake of that very specific scenario.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by FlowerChild »

MrLemon wrote: I haven't played the new relapse yet but from what I understand, the new change seems to simply sacrifice constant play with someone else for realism. In my opinion, realism is more important than supporting what is essentially an optional mode of play. (Something which FC obviously isn't a big fan of)
Arg...no, please don't use the 'r' word. This has nothing to do with "realism", which I'm also not a big fan of :)
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DreamsofFury
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by DreamsofFury »

FC just keep on truckin, you know dam well 90% of us that frequent the forums will appreciate everything you do with the mod and even till the day RTH becomes a thing we will still be playing BTW from time to time.

I personally love the new features, and I'm only holding off updating my clients cause I want to learn the new features with my friends, this update also comes at a perfect time for a group of people to get together to do a mass recorded LP (that I will be posting here).
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by FlowerChild »

Oh yeah, I always do man. Putting a lot of work into a release and having it immediately greeted with bitching may be a downer, but at most it knocks me out of action for a day (which is what happened today) before I'm back on my game.

I seriously hate losing productive time though, which is ultimately what this kind of thing comes down to.
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Gunnerman21
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Gunnerman21 »

I support the removal of the hardcore spawn option :) I felt too many people weren't getting the full experience of exploration because they stayed too close to spawn. Now when they die they'll have to work to get back to their base :)
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abzu93
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by abzu93 »

Great update! Thanks, man!

Half-baked rant enclosed:
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Re: HC Spawn - The only difference in the option removed or not is whether players manually teleport their playing partner to them, or they have the game to do it for them. Don't want to use HC Spawn? Well some people don't want HC Buckets, HC Beds, or HC anything. This is what BTW is now. It's no longer "vanilla with windmills" and hasn't been for a long time.

What BTW is now, is precisely what has kept me playing this game for the past year. It is a game that actually challenges players while still asking them to be creative. It's about being in a world that doesn't want you there in the first place. It will cast you away, kill you, and confuse you at every opportunity until you beat it into submission -- and even then. And it keeps getting more challenging with every update. I love that shit.
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johnt
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by johnt »

Suggestion for people who don't want HC Spawn and don't want to use teleport: Give yourself a stack of soulsand when you start the server and plop it down on spawn. You can come up with any reason you want for doing it. As long as you both don't die simultaneously, you'll be fine.
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Gears
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Gears »

Personally I enjoyed hardcore spawn. Whenever me or my friends would die, we would restart where we were at, get to the redstone tier, build a compass and find our way back to the spawn where our town was set up.

I'm definitely looking forward to using this feature once we get it figured out. Looks like we're gonna have to sacrifice somebody for science, though.

And to FlowerChild, thanks for the update. I know it's not much, but dropping some money your way as a thank you :)
FlowerChild wrote:For example, I'm feeling such a whim right now, and look forward with anticipation to the feeling of satisfaction that shall come from acting upon it.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by FlowerChild »

Gears wrote:And to FlowerChild, thanks for the update. I know it's not much, but dropping some money your way as a thank you :)
It's very much appreciated man.
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WeedFather
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by WeedFather »

I too don't really mind the update. I'll admit, I got frightened and tensed up a little when I read about the change, but I actually recently had a fun little experience with HCS prior to this update, and the new thing with soulsand and the use of beacons certainly are cool and will help out with that.

Another reason why I don't mind is because unlike a kind of unexpected number of people on here...I don't have a gf to Let's Play with. ;_;

So, no complaints here!
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barcode
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by barcode »

I just started a new server (4.87) with a friend to finally get to all the new early-game mechanics since we had progressed quite a bit on our old world already, so the changes didn't affect us all that much. It's a 2 player co-op, and we have all the hardcore stuff enabled and died a few times already. While it does inject a new kind of challenge and does indeed remove the aspect of playing co-op for a while, I totally don't want to play without it anymore. I also don't have a lot of time to play anymore, right now we sort of play independent from each other for little stretches of time to progress and get little sub-bases going, which are necessary with hardcore spawn anyways and also help locating yourself in the world. So we're making use of this temporary drawback. My buddy has always found a way back to our original spawn, where I think I have wandered off in a completely wrong direction or am really far away, or both. We don't mind this at all, on the contrary, it gives us another new challenge. While looking to find my way back I am looking around for as much iron I can find (so far: nothing!!!!) so that we can progress into the nether a bit faster. Maybe on my way back, I will find a village as well to give us the resources needed to really settle down. This forced exploration that I wouldn't have done otherwise is quite interesting. I just hope that eventually, I will find my way back home without having to cheat. ;) I think once I'm back at spawn, I will have to load the world in MCedit and see how far off I wandered :)

Don't sweat it FC, you're doing a good job that is much appreciated. Don't let some bitching drag you down, in the end there still is a way around HC Spawn, and if it's "too cheaty" then don't do it and "bite the sour apple", as we say here. The level to where you have single-handedly taken this is amazing... for the first time ever, I'm donating, cause it's totally worth it.
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Bhokarala
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Bhokarala »

I'm going to say a lot here because I've been using BTW for a very long time and I don't show my support nearly as much as I should - considering how I feel about the enterprise and how much FlowerChild deserves to hear it.

Synopsis of the spoilered rant: I support Hardcore Spawn being made non-optional, I thank FlowerChild for caring about the design of his game, and I think people should recognize that FlowerChild is building the game he'd like to play and any complaining that FlowerChild doesn't cater to such and such a playstyle isn't going to change that.
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<rant>

I started playing BTW co-op with my girlfriend just over a week ago. Never had any experience with multi-player BTW before. She's completely new to the mod, and I'm pretty green when it comes to a lot of the recent early game survival aspects. So I'm used to building mill-stones and windmill right off the bat.

We were both thinking that this hardcore-spawn thing might be an issue, wanting to build a base together and all that, and I mentioned that it could be turned off. She was of the "hell no" opinion and I didn't like the option either. So we began playing co-op together with hardcore spawn enabled. We had a few restarts from making stupid mistakes early on, and - in the beginning - being separated really dampened our spirits. We teleported a few times and we both felt like shit for doing it. Our current world is moving along at a steady rate and we've invested some time in building landmarks (we're in the biggest swamp-by-swamp-by-swamp biome I've ever seen) and I think we should be pretty good if one of us dies. If we can't make it back, I'm fine with that because that is the way the game is designed to be played. I'm not going to labatomize a dynamic aspect of co-op play because this co-op doesn't come in the symmetrical "let's do everything together" flavor.

An amusing story:
While showing her the ropes, I made care to mention not to go hunting zombies with her wolves. But it didn't take long before something went wrong.You see, she remembered from a long time ago, when I was the only one playing BTW, that I'd use the rotten flesh to feed my wolves. Now kibble was implemented along time ago, and the beast added recently, but she didn't know any of that. So she fed the dog the rotten flesh and had herself a bit of surprise. I guess I should have been more explicit.

So: I support mandating the hardcore spawn rules. Flowerchild has made an ingenious compromise between vMC's total lack of death-penalty, and the out-of-this-world distressing penalty to vMC's hardcore mode. The result is something slightly less penalizing than your one-life rogue-likes: You lose your progress if you die, but it further encourages exploration and construction projects in a way which is really unique.

I understand that when one really wants to play co-op, what they don't want is an experience which is no different from solo-play. But dying in BTW SMP isn't anything like SSP - at least from what I've seen. In SSP you can't go out hunting one day with your wolves to stumble across a lighthouse - civilization! - that you never built, misty in the far distance. And, to be honest, hardcore spawn really adds to the RPG elements of the game, in that Steve gets a real story besides vMC's "this a block world, build things - or not." Go on rescue missions! Climb those distant peaks, raise medieval towers across that flat horizon, do what you can do to help Steve return home!

The way I see it is that some people are looking at co-op BTW as adding a casual social element to the game, without changing anything from the usual SSP experience. That's not what co-op does in BTW. In BTW, you get the grueling worry of having to protect your friend's back, you have to work together in ways that are fundamentally different from SMP without hardcore spawn. You wouldn't go pointing fingers at some AAA title with asymmetrical co-op and say "Hey! All I want to do is do this thing, with my friend here. Not any of this intentionally designed crap that adds oodles of intelligent features and challenging gameplay. I want me and my friend to play SSP - but together."
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Of course, you wouldn't say that because AAA titles simply don't have the eye for gameplay that Flowerchild has. Too busy spending their art and marketing budgets.

Different games do different things, and co-op BTW just simply isn't the same thing as SSP twice over.

</rant>
I remember when people got upset over vMC's redstone update because the official philosophy seemed to be "Don't like it? You don't have to use those blocks." I was upset too - not because of the content of that update, but because Jeb didn't seem to care about delivering a complete product, but just began dishing out random stuff because "hey - it's a sandbox. You'll figure out something to do with it. Probably something really exploity." Something is wrong when a dev is completely ok with people just ignoring swaths of their game, because that means they're ok with a game with poorly thought-out design. BTW tries really hard not to do that and I think FlowerChild is right in not compromising (read: bowdlerize) here.

Oh, and because I seem to have forgotten: I find co-op with hardcore spawn enabled very enjoyable, and I wouldn't turn it off even if I still had the option to.
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Grom PE
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Grom PE »

I must say I am glad I was playing with hardcore spawn in my recent play and learned to like it, now I'm not turning back.
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johnt
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by johnt »

To be honest, I find HS to be LESS annoying on co-op servers. You have a lot more chance to find SOMETHING even if it's not your stuff, and you can still chit-chat about what you're doing while you're rebuilding, and people can help you get home.

On single player, if you haven't gotten a base going before you died, you might as well trash the world and restart, because 100% of your progress is gone, except now spawn has fewer animals, which is super frustrating. I don't tend to die as much in the early game as I used to, so it doesn't bother me anymore, but man was that frustrating at first.
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Shengji
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Shengji »

Urgh, just went to post my gratitude to FC for the new release and I notice it's locked. Now here's the thing - I downloaded the release last night (French time), when there were no comments and have been playing it pretty solidly until now. Why didn't I post my thanks straight away? Simply because I like to know what I'm talking about when I post.

Do you know what makes me laugh - I didn't ever realise any of the HC modes were able to be turned off. I understand the point about people wanting to play with friends not being together in the virtual world anymore, at least for the first few hours (I dispute the 6 hour figure, but lets run with it anyway) but can't you treat the finding each other as part of the game? Please don't tell me you expect the death of a player in a survival game to be a minor annoyance, a few minutes out of your building fun and then you can continue as if nothing bad happened? The way I see it, trying to find each other is part of the fun. You're going to have to work together, intelligently and you know what, your game will be richer and far more interesting for your experience.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by FlowerChild »

Just turning in for the night, but just wanted to thank you guys for your support here.

Not much more to say, I just wanted to say I've been reading and appreciate it :)
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Ferrus.Manus
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Re: Hardcore Spawn is finished

Post by Ferrus.Manus »

Don't worry FC, lot of players (including me, though not this time) have initial knee-jerk negative reaction to lot of your hardcore changes and while most of us learned to suppress it and actually try it before engaging in theoretical wankery it's not that easy. You really shouldn't take any negative comments in first 1-2 days after release seriously.
Last edited by Ferrus.Manus on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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