The potential of lighting

[Sarudak]

Lighting as a defense has so much potential in minecraft that I am consistently saddened by how it is trivialized by torches. Torches are trivially easy to produce and thus tend to make mob defense trivial. I understand why FC doesn't want to implement hardcore torches in minecraft. First off it would screw with people's worlds and secondly the alternatives currently in minecraft/btw are not sufficiently more difficult/interesting than torches to warrant the change IMO. It is interesting to contemplate what a more engaging lighting system might look like though. Here are some of my thoughts.

Torches: Torches would be the most basic of lighting sources. They don't provide a lot of light. And they go out. Either over time when the fuel runs out or due to weather. Torches would probably be used all game during things like cave exploration and mining however they are not an acceptable long term lighting solution.

Fire: Basic fires such as you might have in a campfire or fireplace would provide more light than torches however they would require constant attention or they would burn through their fuel and go out. Fire could of course double as the primitive way to cook food.

So that covers the obvious. This would strictly limit the size and layout of a player's base at the start. It would encourage people to build primitive open camps and maybe move into caves for the night but not be inclined to live there permanently.

Lanterns: The next level of tech would be lanterns. Lanterns would have a limited amount of fuel and could be turn on/off as well as being refuelable a fueling would last *significantly* longer than a single torch. Fuel for lanterns could be either some kind of oil or perhaps alcohol fermented from plant materials. Still labor intensive but not nearly as much as a torch. Lanterns could be turned off during the day to allow for fuel savings with natural lighting. This would allow a player to keep a larger base lit.

Gas Fueled Lamps: I think electricity would seem out of place but imagine if steve could set up a pipes to move gas fuel automatically to gas fueled lamps. This is where things would start to get really interesting. It would be possible to setup a large lighting system assuming one had automated fuel production. The player could also setup valves to turn on/off the gas supply if an area is not being used or during the day when natural lighting is available. More interesting is once a player is wholly reliant on this system a breakdown could be devastating imagine if automated production broke down and you didn't realize. The stockpiles slowly dwindle then suddenly darkness. You have to fight your way through your now monster infested base to get back to the fuel boiler and restart production! :D

Certainly magical permanent lighting could still be possible especially if they were difficult enough that lighting a large base was impractical. However I really like the gas powered lamp idea. It makes lighting an economic concerns. Suddenly installing skylights and setting up daylight detectors w/valves has real value. Players need to consider if they can afford to expand their base right now or need to develop more robust lighting. Carelessness could lead to insufficient supply leading to brownouts leading to surprise ambushes! Also being so dependent on a certain supply chain would make building a robust, efficient, fail safe system far more than just an academic exercise.

[Grass_Block]

That looks too hard to be honest. And if the game or mod were really like that from the start they wouldn't be nearly as popular.

I don't know but infinite lighting never bothered me (though I liked Notch's idea about lanterns). Changing the fuel constantly would be a pain on the early game and if you forgot to do it mobs would be everywhere , and that would not be as "interesting" as it would be "annoying" with a click-based battle system.

About gas fuelled lamps , having to do big (and possibly complex) systems to prevent mobs to spawn and being able to see your base doesn't seem like an attractive idea. To be fair , torch-spaming is easy , but I am not sure if that is one of the aspects of the game that even need difficulty.

Just my opinion.

[Sarudak]

There would certainly be numbers to tweak but if your lanterns lasted for say an in game week you would only need to refill them once per hour which wouldn't really be too onerous unless your base were huge in which case you would be motivated to upgrade to a more advanced system. The thing is unless the previous options are too hard, too annoying, or not powerful enough there's no motivation to upgrade to an automated solution that requires significant investment. A perfect example is soul urns. There was a time when you didn't have to put the urn under the hopper and you could just have them sitting inside the hopper and throw stacks of ground netherrack on top. It was easy and I know many people (including myself) never bothered to build an automated system. Basically because doing it manually was easy I missed out on the fun of figuring out how to automate it.

[FlowerChild]

<eyes glazed over...did not read>

I'm really not looking for suggestions for RTH man.

My comments in the MCF thread were geared towards MC. If you're talking about an entirely different game, then of course my views on the subject would be different.

The role lighting will play, and how it will work in RTH, is not something I'm willing to discuss.

[Sarudak]

Yeah it wasn't meant as a suggestion I know there's no way you would do this kind of overhaul while finishing up BTW and also that I have no idea what kind of role lighting will play in RTH and don't pretend to. So sorry if it was taken as a suggestion and given the way my post on MCF was phrased I'm not surprised it was taken that way. I just wanted to share the thought. Perhaps it might even turn into something I get excited enough about to mod in myself. So I encourage you to continue not reading if such is your inclination. :)

[FlowerChild]

Fair enough man. Theorize away :)

[Shengji]

Nice idea's Sarudak, but as someone who has been adding my own version of HC Torches into minecraft for a year now, I can offer the following feedback:

I found torches going out in time could strain lower end systems badly, especially if you want this to happen in unloaded chunks. Going out in poor weather was the only way for me to have HC torches in game (Though I'm not an amazing coder). I run an external program every time I boot MC which implements my time expired lights. Not an elegant solution, but it's not for public consumption and is quick and easy.

I also found that because various tech tiers of BTW do not rely on the advanced torches, I would end up going directly from simple torches with all their drawbacks straight to the top tech level when I reached it in BTW. All it did was make me want to hurry through the tech levels and I did not enjoy the resultant gameplay.

So I stuck with a two tier system - torches which go out and BTW lights. I still put out mostly torches and important core areas have light blocks. It means I have to retake some areas when I want to revisit, but honestly, storming your own defences is fun!!

Just my notes and thoughts.

[Sarudak]

Why do you think it was so taxing? I wonder what you were doing with the torches? I would use something similar to wheat growth as a kind of countdown and then at the end it would go out. It seems that wouldn't be much more taxing on the system than a field of wheat as due to their nature the player would never be able to have a huge number of torches active at a time. As far as making them go out when the chunks weren't loaded I would just stick with the standard MC mantra of nothing happens in the world if the player isn't there.

Edit: Also my system would definitely involve either removing light blocks (and of course redstone lamps) or altering their recipe so as to make them prohibitively expensive such that a player would never be able to light a large base with them. Although removing them would make growing hemp more difficult I think that's something I could live with.

Edit again: Sorry I reread and saw that you were using an external program.

[Shengji]

As far as making them go out when the chunks weren't loaded I would just stick with the standard MC mantra of nothing happens in the world if the player isn't there.

Fair enough, bear in mind my implementation is designed to make bases I have abandoned become mob dens and corroded - hence why for my implementation, out of loaded chunk action was essential.

Not disagreeing that your ideas are good, just sharing the journey my implementation took, it's been a lot of work and my experience may be worth something to you, in case you find you are following a similar process through the life-cycle of any mod you make!

[Sarudak]

I'm certainly interested to hear any experiences someone may have had in the same problem space. But my goals are a little different. Instead of moving from something easy to use, cheap and impermanent (torches) to something easy to use, expensive (i guess) and permanent (light blocks). I would be encouraging the player to move from something easy to use, cheap and impermanent (torches) to something more difficult to use, cheap and less impermanent (lanterns with fuel production) to something hard to use, expensive and permanent (gas lamps with automated fuel production, fuel gasification and piping infrastructure). Moving straight to the end solution would be nearly impossible because without building up a basic base which needs some basic lighting solution you would not be able to get the materials or infrastructure required for the end solution.

Basically rather than just the price and the tech level required increasing the complexity of setting up and maintaining the solution increases dramatically as well.

[Wafflewaffle]

As much as i do understand your argument towards the underused/underdevelopt lighting "defense" system i do think torches that burn out are too high maintaince to become a fun mechanic.

BUT, i do think torches are too overpowered as they are in minecraft now. What you guys think would happen if the area lit around the torch was severely nerf? Think about it, torches would provide 2 or 3 wide spawning free area and 7 or 9 lit but spawnable area (i dont recall what level of light is that). That way torches would be good lighting for underground exploration but on wider areas they would be too costly to provide full safety from spawning. Other objects would provide wider areas of light, but cost more to produce.

I always liked the idea of campfires as primary light sources for the first days but... well Minecraft progress system is as organized as the dead hookers i keep in my closet.

[Foxy Boxes]

I fear that for all of the work lighting would still be a non-issue. What's to stop you harvesting some netherrack and setting it alight at various spots you want lit?

EDIT: On that note, a simpler system (although with less automation potential) would be to have coal torches go out after time, but nethercoal torches stay on indefinitely. You could even preserve old worlds by having torches auto-convert into nethercoal torches.

[Ulfengaard]

I think that's close. The benefit of 'light tech' could be translated to light level rather than duration. A torch would put off a lower light level in a small radius. So, you would need bunches of torches to light up a relatively small area. Improved light tech like lanterns would increase the light level and radius, thus increasing the safe area in which you can live and work at night.

EDIT: Also, under such a system, though it might seem unrealistic, it would benefit gameplay to set certain light sources like torches to act as glass: one time use. You break, it's gone. I think that discourages transporting infinite light sources from one location to the next.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I thought of how this could be altered myself and the only thing I could come up with that I didn't think was borderline oppressive was to have some sort of kerosene barrel or keg mechanic. The keg would simply miraculously transfer it's contents to any lantern in a 50x50x50 surrounding the keg. If any fluid piping mechanic was present you would only connect at this point(the keg) rather than every lantern.

It's a rather absurd contrivance because the fuel is not being manually transferred by any means that you can directly reference. The miracle of transfer could just be explained away with the reasoning your character is doing this while we are not playing.

Otherwise placement of reflective surfaces that project or scatter light from one large source might be a rather low tech means of explaining how you can get additional efficiency out of one light source. Particularly if the light source is of a magical nature and very intense or dangerous to work with.

[haphazardnuke]

What if we looked at this the other way around? What if, instead of making light sources weaker, one introduced *dark* sources? As in, a mob or something else that lowers light levels around it in the same way that torches raise light levels? Imagine a creature that, instead of attacking you directly, targets your torches and shrouds them, blocking out their light without destroying them. This system would be, IMO, more interesting than torches that time out because instead of just going around replacing torches, you could design ways of protecting your light sources from the 'Shades'.

[CrafterOfMines57]

What if, instead of making light sources weaker, one introduced *dark* sources?

That might make for an interesting mechanic, if it were easily possible by the current Minecraft light code. One of my very first experiments with modding was exactly this, I made a block and gave it a negative light value emitted just to see what the game would do, the results were less than stellar. My block (DarkStone) had a semi-noticeable effect, but any light source higher than like a 10 was enough to cancel it out entirely, and the darkness really only worked at around redstone torch levels, although it did make for a pretty cool effect when in a room built out of the material.

Either over time when the fuel runs out or due to weather.

Note: Not a suggestion, a purely hypothetical situation
I think running out over time would probably be more annoying than anything, however that weather idea does present what I think would make for an interesting mechanic. Either settle in a base near a water source for use later when you start making Water Wheels or BTW contraptions that benefit from the use of water, fully aware that a storm occurring at night would be a dangerous thing, or create a first base in the desert, where your outside torches won't go out during storms, but there's most likely no easy water access therefore forcing you to relocate your base later in the game in exchange for additional safety at the start.

[EtherealWrath]

I absolutely loathe torch spam to keep an area clear (it looks so ugly), a torch burnout time would certainly boost the game and encourage players to use more magical light sources (glowstone burns forever).
[Cue the wave of teneboppers whining about this, and the burnout time being extended until its practically forever]

It'll be nice if there were several alternatives to lamps and blocks, but until then I guess its just mix it up and never place torches on the ground.

[FaceFoiled]

Theorizing and speculating! I like! :)
Just wondering about something:

Personally, I like lighting to be done in a way that it compliments the build. This is one of the reasons that I plan to have a day/night censor hooked up to the redstone lamps lining the walkways/outside areas of my Skycity. Whether this will work or will remain to be seen, still a work in progress. :P

What I wonder about though, is the lighting whilst building. When you start building things, you often want to light up certain areas to secure it. Torches here and there so you can continue building at night as well. I know some just go underground and mine a bit, but personally I just prefer to keep constructing.

How would you address that, as the proposed light sources would not really accommodate such situations as temp. lights. Timed torches could work, that would work for the duration of 1 night (as an example), but as mentioned - that might cause issues certain systems.

[Mikko_blu]

I like torches. They provide a quick and easy source of portable light, and especially when caving or whatnot, it's a tool to find my way back. However, i do think that some more flexible light sources could be added to further increase complexity in a problem-solution situation. Especially materials. So the quality of materials put into the torch (or light source), would in turn increase the effectivness of the light source. For example: Stoked fires are bright right? Well what if you attached a lens to a stoked fire? Then you have a powerful source of light that's expensive, but effective at lighting up large areas, making for more complexity in what you choose to light up a area.

I use redstone lamps alot. I like the fact that i have to do extra bits to make a different source of light.

[ion]

i have placed in my BTW world about 11k torches. now when they burn out, i'll send you my save to relight them all , and voila just when you finish the first lit torches go off again.
you just set a human clock based on relighting torches. now try to change them to upper tier. and add fuel.
just imagine.
if a game has a limited area it would make sense.
the range of a lamp should be big (bigger that minecraft equivalent) else you'll see lot's of lamps with all the space between them filled by fuel mechanism and pipes and again no more space for other buildings.
don't add realism where there is no need!

[SterlingRed]

I think that's close. The benefit of 'light tech' could be translated to light level rather than duration. A torch would put off a lower light level in a small radius. So, you would need bunches of torches to light up a relatively small area. Improved light tech like lanterns would increase the light level and radius, thus increasing the safe area in which you can live and work at night.

EDIT: Also, under such a system, though it might seem unrealistic, it would benefit gameplay to set certain light sources like torches to act like glass: one time use. You break, it's gone. I think that discourages transporting infinite light sources from one location to the next.

I think you've hit on something here. Imo the scale of what the op is discussing just doesn't fit btw or vmc. I could see it as an add on to btb though. May it rest in peace. (Poors one out)

But this I could see feeling much more natural in vanilla/btw. Slightly nerf torch light range and make them unrecoverable. Leave Redstone lamps and light blocks alone. Add a lantern with an iron and nether coal recipe with the light range of the old torches and make the item recoverable when broken. (lantern is redundant of course but I'd like to have a light source that looks good hanging on a wall.) to avoid destroying old world's with the torch range nerf just eat a new item Id for the new torch code and duplicate/redirect the recipe. toss in some code monkey magic so that any torch old or new can't be recovered when broken and tada! Profit.

[Sarudak]

Some people seem confused as if I'm going to make this mod and reach out to their computer and install it on their minecraft version without their consent. This is mostly a hypothetical exercise. Asking the question 'how could lighting have been done in a more interesting/challenging way?' Obviously you would be playing from scratch. And you would never have 20 bajillion torches in your world because the system is specifically designed to make that impossible. You would probably never have more than a couple hundred torches setup at one time and even that is stretching it. Torches would be an impractical lighting system in the long term and that is intentional because if it's not impractical there's little reason to move up.

[DNoved1]

So this mod would be intended as a sort of extra challenge for newly made worlds? I certainly like the idea, but I feel that Minecraft's light level limit of 15 is too little and would make it too difficult to light areas sufficiently without really overcrowding. If you could somehow make your theoretical gas lamps provide a range greater than that of jack-o-lanterns/glowstone/redstone lamps then I see this as being much more interesting.

[Mikko_blu]

Some people seem confused as if I'm going to make this mod and reach out to their computer and install it on their minecraft version without their consent. This is mostly a hypothetical exercise. Asking the question 'how could lighting have been done in a more interesting/challenging way?' Obviously you would be playing from scratch. And you would never have 20 bajillion torches in your world because the system is specifically designed to make that impossible. You would probably never have more than a couple hundred torches setup at one time and even that is stretching it. Torches would be an impractical lighting system in the long term and that is intentional because if it's not impractical there's little reason to move up.

But if you have a mobtrap it would be impractical to even attempt at lighting up all the caves without a cheap source of light.

[DNoved1]

One potential alternative to lighting up caves is to instead half-slab caves. Difficult, but likely easier than setting up a line of gas-fueled lamps along your cave network.