Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

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FlowerChild
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Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

Another week, another round of feature development (or once again in this case...not) :)

As always, rules for this thread:

-DO NOT post suggestions.
-DO NOT critique unreleased features. Wait until you've had a chance to try them before passing judgement.

With that out of the way:

I'll open up with a screenshot that summarizes the mod's development over the last week:
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And yes, that has nothing to do with the mod whatsoever :)

After the BWF induced chaos of the past while and all the stress it caused, I decided I was in need of a break from modding to chill, and reevaluate the direction I'm heading in with the mod. In the end, it turned out to be a full week before I really felt like returning back to working on BTW, and I began back in on it this morning.

Honestly, this whole thing sucks on multiple levels. Not sure how many of you can really relate to spending a year and a half pouring your heart and soul into something like this just to have it blatantly ripped off, but I can assure you that it really isn't a pleasant sensation :)

The net result was that I was almost completely drained of all desire to continue producing free content for people that would do something like this, very similar to what happened with the Yogaboo invasion, or with my troubles while part of the Forge, for those of you that have been with the mod for a long time.

It doesn't look like that sensation will ever fully go away either. To give you an example, when I returned to work on the mod this morning, I looked over my todo list for my first task. One thing that caught my eye was a few additions I wanted to make to the Block Dispenser, but before then, I wanted to refactor the existing code for the BD to clean it up and put in hooks for add-on authors.

This seemed like a good place for me to start back into things, but as I considered the task further, I had a thought:

"Wait a second...the BWF guy hasn't implemented the Block Dispenser yet".

You see, the guy is obviously deobfuscating and reverse engineering my code. This allows him to develop at a relatively rapid pace given that he doesn't actually have to think through the related problems himself but has a ready made solution in place from which he can then rewrite/plagiarize the code.

Given that, by refactoring and cleaning up the code, I'd actually be helping him in that process. This is obviously not palatable to me, as I'd much rather see the dip shit suffer whenever possible.

But herein we have a problem, because now I am working at cross-purposes to myself. I desire to work on things with the mod, but I in no way desire to help him rip me off, and with that, any joy or satisfaction I may take from working on such stuff goes out the window.

And really, from now on, this isn't just the story with regards to refactoring code, but also with regards to any new content I might desire to add as well. Do I really feel like working on new stuff when I know he will just be ripping it off as well, and that any work I put into it will directly benefit him? Do I go out of my way to make my own code as annoying to read and work with as possible because that will be to his detriment, knowing all the while that I'm also hurting myself in having to deal with that code in maintaining the mod in the future, and also likely hurting add-on authors?

I obviously don't want to go that route, but I think the above illustrates how quickly your thought process can become muddied under such a scenario, and why it rapidly ceases to be any fun.

So what to do? That's primarily what has been running through my head over the past week, even while I took a break.

I don't have a clear answer at present. The only thing I do know is that something has to change, as I do not think I will want to continue modding MC under such conditions. I may keep going for awhile on fumes, but I think it's becoming clear to me that BWF, and the overall trend it represents is killing my love of what it is I've been doing with BTW.

As you probably all know, I make BTW for fun, and this just isn't fun.

So I've been considering my various options for how to proceed in the future, especially where RTH is concerned, and while I do not have any clear direction as of yet, one option has definitely become more appealing to me, and that is creating my own game instead of modding MC.

That is a LOT more work, and obviously all the negative points I've made about that idea in the past still stand. However, this BWF thing in particular has me really wondering if it just might be worth the trouble after all in order to get myself away from this Minecraft modding scene once and for all, and create an environment for myself in which I can continue developing in relative peace.

It also plays into another set of questions I've been asking myself as of late with regards to just how far I want to go in modifying the underlying architecture of MC in order to get the functionality I want out of RTH. The stuff I'm considering (extended metadata is one example) is of course very doable, but problems start to arise when you consider what happens if Mojang themselves start changing the underlying architecture upon which it is based, at which point, I begin to say to myself "yes, it's more work up front, but how much more than what will be required for ongoing maintenance to adjust to those changes?"

And honestly, I think most of us are of a similar mind now that we're not really expecting anything further of good quality to be coming out of Mojang in the future, given the nature of their recent releases, so why do I want to pay the "price" in terms of maintenance for code I don't even want in the first place?

Then of course, there's also the issue of this upcoming mod API. I haven't heard anything definitive about this, but if the rumors are to be believed, then it sounds like Mojang will be discouraging, or potentially even disallowing base class modifications, in which case, what happens to RTH at that point given that it will most certainly require some heavy duty changes to the way MC works, at a much more fundamental level than BTW does?

So, all told, it has me asking some very hard questions about whether I should be sticking with MC or going my own way entirely.

From a player perspective, me going my own way would likely suck pretty bad at the start. It would likely mean several months of no new playable content, and when you did get your hands on some, it would likely be many more months before it was even up to the level of what is in vMC, never mind BTW. As I've mentioned many times before, that also sucks from my perspective as that time would be spent doing what I consider to be "infrastructure", not actual gameplay, which as you all know is what I primarily enjoy.

It's definitely a heavy price to pay, so the question is then whether it will be worth it in the long run. Will the design freedom it affords me and the reduced maintenance cost due to not having to update to new versions of MC make it all worth it in the end? There's no easy answer to that.

Anyways, that's what's been going through my head these days :)

Regardless of which route I take though, the clear task at present is finalizing BTW, and that's what I returned to working on today. I started off with resolving an inventory management bug, and that turned into a rather large refactor of the inventory handling code for the mod. I'll likely take a look at a few other outstanding bugs today to clear those off my plate.

Due to decreased motivation, I'm still moving relatively slowly, but I'll just keep plugging away moving towards the point at which I consider BTW "complete", whatever it is that I decide on doing afterwards.

Oh, and in case any of you are wondering, none of the above affects my ongoing support of BTW. Whether I create a new mod, make RTH an extension of BTW (which seems less and less likely as time goes on), or make my own game, I will continue to support and update BTW for the indefinite future.
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Sarudak
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Sarudak »

Wow man I'm sorry to hear that. Certainly does make the make your own game option far more appealing. Here's to hoping you get back on the horse soon. As soon as you figure out which horse will take you where you want to go. :)

Also I still think you'd have some massive support if you want to go the kickstarter route. Maybe you could even get enough money for a small team! Although that might be a pipe dream. *crosses fingers*

Overall I've always been a fan of the idea of you making your own game. I'd really like to see a flowerchild original. But whatever you decide I say enjoy your 'time off' as much as you can. Lots of cool game on sale on steam. :)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by icynewyear »

All my love and support FC, no matter what path you choose.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by danielngtiger »

Well, this whole deal seems to really suck all around, but I'm sure that in the end, you will figure out the best course of action. I am dissapointed that someone could be so low as to completely drive a passionate individual away from modding a game entirely, but it may be for the best in the end. Take whatever time you need to decide, I certainly stand behind you on that.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by ReaperT »

FlowerChild, no matter what you decide to do for the future, you will always have my respect and support. And I'm certain that there are many others that feel the same way. To be completely honest, the way the Minecraft modding community is now just disgusts me. The very thought that something as wrong as BWF (or anything similar) is even accepted by a small amount of a "community" is appalling. There shouldn't be this idea that a mod developer has to bend to the will of a few people just because they're needy and the fact that you've been around this long, putting up with it, is downright astounding. It would be completely understandable if you decided to make your own game and I know that I would gladly wait however long it would take to play it. I feel like I'm going to start ranting so simply put: whatever decision you make, you have my support.

EDIT:
changed some wording
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Ulfengaard »

This is a frustrating situation, no doubt, and I suspect there are very few of us who can relate to what you're feeling. I wish I had some wise words or an 'aha!' which would help, but I think you're squarely in the driver's seat on this. Only you know what will work best. You're the man with the plan, and we support you, whatever move you make. I was with you when you toyed with going indie before, and the sentiments I voiced then still stand. Do what's best for you, FC. We've never gone wrong trusting in your decisions before.

EDIT: Nice words, Reaper. I agree and feel the same disgust you do.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by destineternel »

Wow! I was like ooh! new dev thread... :(( Flowerchild whatever direction you decide you've got my support. <3

Yea ReaperT pretty much summed up how I feel about the mod community currently.


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Last edited by destineternel on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by dawnraider »

Keep in mind that not updating the mod to new versions of vMC is an option. The only reason I update MC now is for BTW. I honestly would prefer to have RTH as a separate mod for MC, as that is the game I love (recently purely because of BTW, so thanks for that).I also do not want to have to have you go through all the suffering of infrastructure coding, but I also don't want to have to force you through the BWF BS. Though, if you do not update to new MC versions, that would definitely put strain on BWF, possibly shutting it down, while not taking away anything from BTW (let's be honest, are we really missing out not updating MC?) I also am completely disgusted by this whole thing. As always, you have my full support in whatever you do.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Eriottosan »

I'm exhausted and on my iPod so spelling and content here may leave a lot to be desired, but nontheless I feel like I have to respond while this is fresh reading to me.

First of all, the entire situation sucks, and is undeserved. I'm sure that's not the last time I say that. I have a lot of respect for you, FC, as a modder and as a person, and I'm massively upset by the amount if shit you have to deal with, for providing joy to countless users. It's just not fair.

Speaking from a consumer level, I have to say, I hope you continue to produce something along a modding scene for MC.

But speaking from a personal - and a more active - level, if you want or need to take your work to your own environment, then go for it. If that's what will be best for you, it will be the best for gameplay, so everybody wins.

No matter what, take all the time you need.

You once said (something like) modding MC and BTW was one of the things in your coding life you've enjoyed the most. The fact that the actions of one selfish person and the resultant storm has managed to destroy the fun you have in it deeply saddens me.

To be perfectly honest, if you disappered completely because of this pathetic and demorilising shit directed at you, I would completely understand. It's safe to say that whenever BTW and/or RTH cease to exist, whenever that is, they will still be a main playstyle for me in terms of MC.

I would just hope that - one day - I would stumble upon a game or mod for a game that reminds me of BTW and the inspiring man who coded it, and smile to myself, wishing that he was enjoying himself again.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Kombucha »

So...Forge wins? How disheartening...

With all your musings and hints on RTH, the prospect of designing an original game entirely seems like a somewhat natural progression. If you do in fact decide to go this route, I'm certain RTH will be as inthralling if not more so than BTW is.

I, like many people here I'm sure, have trouble playing vMC anymore as BTW has become, well... standard for me. A large part of this is how seamless the mod runs with vMC as well as your dedication to constantly improve it. If BWF has effected you to the degree you're presenting here, I am truly sorry. MC and its community will be losing a talented mod author and an infinite number of potentially awesome mods and features that you could have produced in the days to come.

(please note that I've never been one for ass-kissing in contrast to some here, and I hope you take the above sincerely.)

Whatever your decision, best of luck to you FC and thank you for creating BTW.
Last edited by Kombucha on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Eriottosan »

Kombucha wrote:so... Forge wins? How disheartening...
If you're not going to be supportive, piss off.

EDIT: Oh, and if you'd read it, you'd have seen how stupid your statement was:
FlowerChild wrote:Oh, and in case any of you are wondering, none of the above affects my ongoing support of BTW. Whether I create a new mod, make RTH an extension of BTW (which seems less and less likely as time goes on), or make my own game, I will continue to support and update BTW for the indefinite future.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Panda »

Im just really happy you have such committment to your work man :D
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Kombucha
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Kombucha »

Eriottosan wrote:
Kombucha wrote:so... Forge wins? How disheartening...
If you're not going to be supportive, piss off.

EDIT: Oh, and if you'd read it, you'd have seen how stupid your statement was:
FlowerChild wrote:Oh, and in case any of you are wondering, none of the above affects my ongoing support of BTW. Whether I create a new mod, make RTH an extension of BTW (which seems less and less likely as time goes on), or make my own game, I will continue to support and update BTW for the indefinite future.
I've expanded upon my initial response; I was not referring to BTW, but rather FC's potential future contributions to the MC community.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Extreme Boyheat »

Time for a real vacation, away from civilization. :)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

Kombucha wrote: (please note that I've never been one for ass-kissing in contrast to some here, and I hope you take the above sincerely.)
No, you're definitely not a suck up. In fact, I had already mentally flagged you as a likely troll from some of your recent posts, and this settles it for me.

I've taken several heavy blows as of late, so I apologize to the rest of the community for ever hesitating, but I think we all know how this story is going to end. Let me save us both some undue trouble and cut right to the chase.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

And with that unpleasantness out of the way, just wanted to thank the rest of you guys for your support here. As always, it means the world to me that there are indeed members of the community that understand what I've been going through and support me in any tough decisions that may need to be made.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by johnt »

Throw up a kick-starter and I'll donate.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

johnt wrote:Throw up a kick-starter and I'll donate.
Well, the thing is man, that's always been one of my objections to going the new game route.

Outside of what is discussed above, I don't benefit from it as I am working less on the stuff I enjoy (gameplay).

Players don't benefit from it (at least in the short term) as they get less of the kind of content they enjoy out of me (gameplay).

Thus, if you donate to me simply because I am starting my own game, you're actually getting way less value for your money, and I'm getting less benefit out of it, than if you were to make a donation based on the work I do with BTW.

There's a certain logical disconnect going on here where people seem to view donations for a full game to somehow be more legitimate than those made for a mod, despite the fact that they're getting more value out of it, and that the work I do on the mod is certainly no lesser than that I would invest in a game (it's just work invested in different areas).

I know that effect is very real, but at the same time, I don't fully "get it" either.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Splee999 »

Heh heh, looks like I wasn't the only one who fell to the lure of ANNO 2070 being on sale over the holidays...
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by finite8 »

Lets us know how we can help mate. I think this forum has a little legion of programmers from varying disciplines and languages that I'm sure can help you fill in any gaps. Wether it's money or resources, I'm sure you will find it in your community here.

Personally, i think once you start work on RTH, you will feel better for it than improving BTW. By the sounds of it, RTH is such a radical change that there will be little for them to Rip off and Mojang to fuck up. You've gotten this far with BTW, another mod seems plausible. I don't want to discourage you making your own game either, as it would be really good to see you in 100% creative control. Just don't do the inventory interface like ArmaII... that is seriously messed up.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Thorium-232 »

FlowerChild wrote: There's a certain logical disconnect going on here where people seem to view donations for a full game to somehow be more legitimate than those made for a mod, despite the fact that they're getting more value out of it, and that the work I do on the mod is certainly no lesser than that I would invest in a game (it's just work invested in different areas).
This is true, in that there is at least more perceived legitimacy in making a full game rather than a mod, no matter how high quality a mod may be versus a full game. But I think the reason people here keep on with the Kickstarter approach and whatnot, is that there are a lot of us who are willing to invest the money in you, in order to unshackle you from having to deal with vMC and its trainwreck approach to game design. Over the last year and a half you've more than displayed your ability to create something extremely engaging that people would want to pay money for. I think that there is a sizeable group of people who wonder what BTW would be like if the entire cake was your doing, and not just the high quality icing job you're constantly forced to redesign every time Mojang fucks with the pans.

Is it less value for money? Maybe. Is it an investment into a perceived longer game, where people are willing to donate more, and wait longer, for a potentially far superior product? Most definitely.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

finite8 wrote: Personally, i think once you start work on RTH, you will feel better for it than improving BTW. By the sounds of it, RTH is such a radical change that there will be little for them to Rip off and Mojang to fuck up. You've gotten this far with BTW, another mod seems plausible. I don't want to discourage you making your own game either, as it would be really good to see you in 100% creative control. Just don't do the inventory interface like ArmaII... that is seriously messed up.
Hehe...gods no. I think most of you guys know how anal I am about interface convention and how quick I am to bitch about a poor one. Keep in mind that all of you know me primarily as a mod designer, but I'm habituated to designing full games from the ground up, interface included.

Also, just to clarify: when I'm talking about making my own game, I'm currently talking about making RTH as my own game. In the past I was reluctant to start a new project that would be so heavily based on the underlying concepts of MC, but what I'm realizing with time is that *this* is what I want to be working on right now in terms of design (i.e. the style of gameplay that MC represents), and that the situation with MC itself is rapidly becoming intolerable for the various reasons I describe above.

As I've also said before, RTH is going to be different enough from MC, whatever form it winds up taking (extension to BTW, sequel and separate mod, or full game), that it pretty much qualifies as its own game. Similar underlying concepts to MC (game based on blocks, survival, and player creativity), but really, my entirely own take on those ideas.

But yes, if I choose to do it as a mod, there will unlikely be very little to rip off, due to conceptual differences, but at the same time, I get the increasing feeling that I am "done" with the MC modding scene as a result of all this crap, and that there may be very real long term advantages to me just packing my things and going my own route, severing all ties with MC completely.

I think I just don't want to deal with this shit anymore, and I only see more of it on the horizon man. As I think Miss Kat mentioned a little while ago in another thread, this mod has been a non-stop drama parade with brief flurries of actual development in the lulls of that. However, I love the activity itself so much that there's no way I want to give it up.

It thus may make sense for me to put in the extra work to create the kind of environment for myself that I would like, where I can simply develop in peace and focus on the game itself, rather than be distracted by the stream of bullshit the community seems compelled to throw at me.

That's another factor that really needs to be considered in this too. Does the time and energy I save on dealing with crap like this help offset the development (and human) cost of creating my own game?
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Ulfengaard »

FlowerChild wrote:but at the same time, I get the increasing feeling that I am "done" with the MC modding scene as a result of all this crap, and that there may be very real long term advantages to me just packing my things and going my own route, severing all ties with MC completely.
I'm not normally one to tell another person their business, but I've felt this way for you for a long time, now. The platform of MC is becoming less of a boon and more of a detriment, in my opinion. I don't claim to know your mind, man, but it has sounded for a while as though going your own way would be so much more fun for you. And, fun for you = content = lots more fun for us.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Mason11987 »

FlowerChild wrote: That's another factor that really needs to be considered in this too. Does the time and energy I save on dealing with crap like this help offset the development (and human) cost of creating my own game?
Heh, imagine if you were working on a game that had it's main community built around a forum completely controlled by you, instead of MCF. Imagine how great that control would be just for drama control and prevention!

I was sad to read everything above and I'm 100% behind you whatever you do. I can't wait to see what's on the horizon either way. Do what you think you'll enjoy most and it'll all work out in the end :).
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Mrchaim »

Well, where you decided to go, godspeed and good luck FC - no one should have to put up with the shit you have, and it's frankly admirable you've kept it togther as well as you have over all of this.
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