What is BWF?

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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

JesterxMailMan89 wrote:I didnt want to post over here about it but something rather interesting just came up on MCF.

One ZegenRuki just said that he is the modder of BWF and has made comments about how he is 'reworking' mechanical powerto be more similar to red power frames or something like that. I have no idea if it is really him but I thought you should know.

EDIT: Actually it may be another BTW clone, not BWF. I apologize for the confusion.
No worries man. I appreciate how you've been representing my point of view in that thread.

As I mentioned there, I don't want to get directly involved with the thread as that will likely turn it into an all out battle-ground, but I have been reading it. I prefer to keep my statements on the matter here where I can keep everything under control if it starts getting out of hand.
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Wafflewaffle
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Wafflewaffle »

Pseudosavior wrote:The whole situation just smells of dirtiness. I've never seen such a cut-throat modding community, it's insane. Keep your head up, and I'm sure it'll blow over eventually.
Yeah im right there with you, in my experience, modding communities were always very sharing and appreciative of others work, but minecraft update cicle and the general "all bets are off" approach of Mojang (as in "we dont interfere in your work, but we will use your ideas" kind of way) can be a very stressful environment. It also does not help when trolls get to know coding. =(

But yeah my 2 cents are: keep your head up FC, we got your back on this one.
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Doctor
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Doctor »

In my opinion i think that they will only get to a certain part of making a clone or converting it to forge (i dont understand the technical stuff) but i think they will change it too much, Floweradult seems too strong headed to keep this project going without changing things, it wont be a btw clone it will be a rip off, and not a good one.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

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Doctor wrote:In my opinion i think that they will only get to a certain part of making a clone or converting it to forge (i dont understand the technical stuff) but i think they will change it too much, Floweradult seems too strong headed to keep this project going without changing things, it wont be a btw clone it will be a rip off, and not a good one.
I actually already noticed the initial effects of that. If you look through the video, I think somewhere around the 4 hour mark they're playing with their version of sub-blocks, and they basically have sub-blocks for every block in the game (similar to RP).

They likely did that because they think it's "better". However, ultimately with time those kinds of "improvements" will add up to drastically alter the character of the mod, and obviously, we're talking about people that have no design skill to speak of.

Anyways, take a look at it for yourself. It feels very weird indeed for that to be happening in what appears to be BTW.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Doctor »

FlowerChild wrote:I actually already noticed the initial effects of that. If you look through the video, I think somewhere around the 4 hour mark they're playing with their version of sub-blocks, and they basically have sub-blocks for every block in the game (similar to RP).

They likely did that because they think it's "better". However, ultimately with time those kinds of "improvements" will add up to drastically alter the character of the mod, and obviously, we're talking about people that have no design skill to speak of.
Interesting, I had thought he might have held back from changes till he had at least had a "playable" version, but it seems like i am being disappointing my someone i had no hopes for to begin with.
Anyway thanks for the tip, il have a look when i have the time. ^.^
ZomB Tott
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by ZomB Tott »

This again? I'm sick of it! It hurts me to even read some of the things people are spouting. I'll just avoid this thing like the plague, because no matter how many voices of reason you throw into the mix, there will always be the ignorant folk. I appreciate how mature you are being about this FC, and the voices of reason in the mix (Jester and Rafe are the first couple I see). Keep your head up, at the end of the day, we know you are right in all of this.
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Extreme Boyheat
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Extreme Boyheat »

Ripping off FC's intellectual property? Why?
Some people are just pathetic.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

ZomB Tott wrote:This again? I'm sick of it! It hurts me to even read some of the things people are spouting. I'll just avoid this thing like the plague, because no matter how many voices of reason you throw into the mix, there will always be the ignorant folk. I appreciate how mature you are being about this FC, and the voices of reason in the mix (Jester and Rafe are the first couple I see). Keep your head up, at the end of the day, we know you are right in all of this.
Well, I was admittedly not at all mature about it the other night when I went into the Forge channel and raged at Lex about it ;)

But, as I mentioned in the other thread a little while ago: I'm human. Obviously, this pissed me off mightily, he was directly involved, and I think everyone here can understand that. Thus, while I perhaps could have handled that better, I am also not the paragon of virtue that people somehow seem to expect you to be as soon as you are in the public eye.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Doctor »

FlowerChild wrote:Well, I was admittedly not at all mature about it the other night when I went into the Forge channel and raged at Lex about it ;)
http://forums.technicpack.net/threads/l ... zis.32725/
I'm not sure if it is accurate but it seems to be a log of what happened while on the forge channel

Edit: Feel free to remove the link if it is inacurate or you would prefer the link away for obvious reasons.
Last edited by Doctor on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kombucha
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Kombucha »

Diggin' the clear bias on the MCF in regards to this. There's a reoccurring insistence BWF is a totally original add on built from the ground up in which BTW source code was "referenced."
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

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Doctor wrote: http://forums.technicpack.net/threads/l ... zis.32725/
im not sure if it is accurate but it seems to be a log of what happened while on the forge channel
Yup, it's an accurate log, or at least it was when I looked it over yesterday.

The statement by CheapShot that I referred to above as agreeing with comes out of that thread as well.
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Stormweaver
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Stormweaver »

Hehe, I actually took the minutes to read the IRC log. I can see why people got riled up at you >.<

If I ever go back in time, I'll find a way to sneak official sarcasm notation into peoples interwebs. Obviously some people suck at seeing it.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Kombucha wrote:Diggin' the clear bias on the MCF in regards to this. There's a reoccurring insistence BWF is a totally original add on built from the ground up in which BTW source code was "referenced."
That's easily refuted by the stream itself and Lex's statements in it. He explicitly mentions going through the BTW code for this project (he then proceeds to slam its quality). Also, even in that IRC log you can see him saying that he doesn't want to be directly involved because he doesn't want to deal with BTW's source, which obviously indicates that it's being used as *at least* a reference.

Hence why I was so certain of his involvement when I went after him. Given the statements he made in the stream, you'd have to be a complete moron to think he's not involved.

Also, in the stream he mentions that the models come directly out of the BTW source. That's code in itself. Textures are directly ripped off too obviously.

Of course, you can just point to the amount of knowledge he has of the mod's code as expressed in the stream as an indication of his level of involvement.

The whole "FC attacked someone who isn't even involved" line of reasoning is just laughable.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Doctor »

For some reason i feel like i would want to play this to be honest
I think its like the idea of watching a really bad movie, just so you know how bad it is
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

I think I need to stop following that MCF thread on this topic. The level of misinformation is beginning to make my head hurt. That one guy just now saying "didn't you watch the video in FC's OP?", then completely misrepresenting my reasons for leaving Forge is pretty much my limit :)
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by JesterxMailMan89 »

Sorry to drag you back in, but the same modder from before has just posted a ton of code saying it fully represents the harness without base class edits. I wouldn't ask for you to look at it if I understood it at all, but I thought it was a pretty big statement.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by finite8 »

Doctor wrote:
FlowerChild wrote:Well, I was admittedly not at all mature about it the other night when I went into the Forge channel and raged at Lex about it ;)
http://forums.technicpack.net/threads/l ... zis.32725/
I'm not sure if it is accurate but it seems to be a log of what happened while on the forge channel

Edit: Feel free to remove the link if it is inacurate or you would prefer the link away for obvious reasons.
BAAAHHHH HA HA HA.

I'm sorry FC. I could see you were getting damn frustrated and pissed off there, but that was bloody hilarious.

Please keep us update on this. I have held out on adding an FC quote to my sig because everyone else does it... but this just made me laugh too much.
Flowerchild (IRC) wrote:I'm not trying to stop you BTW ..., I'm saying that I think you're a piece of shit...not the same thing
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

JesterxMailMan89 wrote:Sorry to drag you back in, but the same modder from before has just posted a ton of code saying it fully represents the harness without base class edits. I wouldn't ask for you to look at it if I understood it at all, but I thought it was a pretty big statement.
It doesn't matter man. They're arguing from the point that I shouldn't make base-class edits, I code from the standpoint that if making a base-class edit is a quicker or more effective way to get something done, I'll do it.

I've written the code for myself and for myself alone to make use of an maintain, NOT for compatibility with other mods, so of course, someone who codes with compatibility as a priority will do things differently in many cases. It is only recently that I've begun to make changes to the code base here and there for add-on authors to have an easier time of it, and that's an ongoing process.

Also, the point about an AI-base class edit for dung not being necessary may very well be correct. I've been modifying that class since well before the AI system for Mojang came into effect, and I generally don't go back and revise such code *unless I think the time it will take me to refactor my code is less that the time it will save me in the future for ongoing maintenance*.

I'm a practical guy when it comes to code. I don't go back and rewrite things just to make them pretty or to do them in some theoretically proper way. If it isn't structured properly in certain places, the only person I am hurting is myself, because I am the only one that is supposed to be dealing with the code (exceptions for the add-on thing mentioned above).

In academic terms, that means I practice "rapid development" where I only write or revise code when it is necessitated by the end result, whereas many of the people, like Lex, that criticize my coding are coming at it from the standpoint of academic wankery as to what is the "correct" approach to get things done.

The end result is that I've been developing and maintaining a rather massive and relatively bug-free code-base for a year and a half now, without once having to go back and rewrite it in the way most major mods are done.

So yeah man, they can take any criticism of the code base and anally insert it. I've been a professional game developer for long enough that my ego is not at all tied up in people trying to nit-pick about my coding practices.

As for the thread in question: such discussion is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

finite8 wrote: BAAAHHHH HA HA HA.

I'm sorry FC. I could see you were getting damn frustrated and pissed off there, but that was bloody hilarious.
No worries man. It *was* hilarious, and for the record: fuck, did it ever feel good :)
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by DaveYanakov »

On the subject of the IRC we are currently down by three until Grau gets home in three weeks. There have been some rough patches when we're not available but I keep full logs including user IPs when they join.

I will be making a list of candidates for additional moderators though. Having overlap is a good thing and not just so I can take my attention off the channel once in awhile when I'm at the keyboard.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Benanov »

FlowerChild wrote: In academic terms, that means I practice "rapid development" where I only write or revise code when it is necessitated by the end result, whereas many of the people, like Lex, that criticize my coding are coming at it from the standpoint of academic wankery as to what is the "correct" approach to get things done.
IIRC, that's called "YAGNI" and it's a big thing in XP circles - why? Because of the payoff, which the mod is living proof of. :)
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Stompinlama »

Frankly this is very saddening and very juvenile on the part of those who code steal. As a long term player of this mod, I think you handled yourself as best as could be expected. I only hope that they eventually realize how dumb they are being and how they make the whole Minecraft modding community appear.

On topic of "rapid development" that is my approach when programming pretty much anything.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Rianaru »

FlowerChild wrote: In academic terms, that means I practice "rapid development" where I only write or revise code when it is necessitated by the end result, whereas many of the people, like Lex, that criticize my coding are coming at it from the standpoint of academic wankery as to what is the "correct" approach to get things done.
I've never seen how anyone can judge something(especially code) in anything other than results. The whole "right" way to do things is basically a cheap trick by those who are less innovative in order to feel superior to people who get the job done by whatever means necessary, and it bugs the hell out of me.
Does it get the job done? Yes
How efficient is it? Apparently very, given that I can't remember more than one or two bugs that have lasted more than a few days in BTW.
There are definitely wrong ways to do things(aka: it doesn't work), but saying that one way is the right way just means that whoever is making that statement doesn't know how to think creatively in most cases.


Sorry about that tirade, but narrow-mindedness is too often the reason for failure, and it bothers me to no end when people pull this crap.
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dawnraider
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by dawnraider »

This is completely rediculous. First of all, how could you be such a fricking idiot as to obviously steal the mod and rip it off, but as to blatantly deny that fact, simply saying that they 'referenced the code' and did not steal any though, as stated by FC, they directly took to modeling code. second of all, the whole thing of you join us or you die and we replace you through a twisted rip off that exudes idiocy is just so immature, that it cannot be expressed in words. I think you (FC) handled the situation very well, and you made some humorous, and quite true, remarks to Lex. As always, you have my support, and continue to push on to RTH and frick these bitches with your awesomeness.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

dawnraider wrote:I think you (FC) handled the situation very well, and you made some humorous, and quite true, remarks to Lex.
I dunno man. I honestly still don't know how I feel about that outburst.

The next morning, I woke up and my immediate thought was the stereotypical "fuck...what did I just do last night?"

So, initially, I wasn't much of a fan of it because I knew that it would inevitably come back to haunt me.

Now however, I'm not so sure. One thing I'm realizing is that it attracted a hell of a lot of public attention, and as a result, there's now more discussion of the underlying issue than there likely would have been otherwise.

So yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about it now. I certainly don't regret it on a moral level, as I think Lex's behavior more than warrants it (I think seven hours of slamming me and BTW fully justifies a few minutes of swearing) and I have no doubts with regards to his involvement in BWF. However, the jury is still out whether it was a good or bad thing in terms of the effect it will have.
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