What is BWF?

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gftweek
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by gftweek »

Ferrus.Manus wrote:You have my full support on this too, the whole thing stinks. Though I wonder about BTF's future, I have my doubts whether the Flower"Adult" will have the patience to finish this, especially once he hits more complicated parts. Also since he self-proclaimed to be "coding genius" I have very strong doubt about his coding ability, those who proclaim themselves to be geniuses usually aren't very good.
I was thinking the same thing. FC has put a lot of work over, a lot of time into BTW making it the great game it is today. We all respect the effort he puts into this and enjoy the result as a stand alone mod more that we would if it was compatible with most other mods.

Even if that so called "genius" does copy every aspect of the current BTW, is he actually ever going to bother maintaining it. Eventually it'll just devolve into a simple mod with just windmills creating IC2 power or it will cease to exist, if it even gets completed to the point that it's released, which is doubtful.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Guys, I'd really like to put together a banner to help spread the word about my cause here, and so that people can show their support for what I'm going through with it.

I believe this is a general issue facing the modding community that is of interest to modders as a whole, and I'd like as much light to be cast on it as possible.

As a result, I'd like to ask for help from any artists within the community to create a banner along lines similar to the following:

What I envision is a Companion Cube on the left side (I think the stylized one from the current mod banner with the tear running down would be perfect), and a similarly stylized face wearing a Gimp Mask on the right.

Words along top reading with the slogan "No means no!", and down along the bottom "I support the independence of Better Than Wolves".

If anyone has some time on their hands and the artistic talent to really pull it off in style, I'd be very much obliged.
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Ecoweb
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Ecoweb »

This would be perfect for Panda if they had the time.
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BrainNoMore
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by BrainNoMore »

Just for that banner I may start posting on MCF
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walker_boh_65
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by walker_boh_65 »

I have certainly gotten my answer on what is BWF: a nasty piece of shit that has scum written all over it.

Although I still don't quite understand why they are doing this, it certainly doesn't paint them in any good light as far as the public is concerned, which has been the whole bases for most of the things that they have done thus far. They have never flat-out 100% copied something before. The whole thing doesn't add up. . .unless. . .*I originally wrote out a theory I had as to reason out why/how this could work, but decided to delete it instead of naming any names or even hinting at it. All I will say is that if it turns out the way I think it is, man that is sicking*

More power to you FC, the shit you have to go through providing people with free content amazes me everyday man.
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icynewyear
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by icynewyear »

I just wanted to toss my 2 cents here. I was going to stay out of it completely but my name came up. I have nothing to do with the creation of BWF. I tried it out wit Mattabase on his stream out of curiosity. I'm a huge fan of BTW and quite simply ignore all the drama associated with both it and forge. The one thing I have done is create a few mods to add BTW breeding mechanics and Hardcore beds to my own forge based worlds. These are features that BTW has taught me I can't live without. With the creation of those two mods I mean no disrespect. As I have said I love BTW and various forge mods and do my damnedest to stay out of the drama. If I had know that Matta's stream would blow up like this I would have stayed away.
Padfoote
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Padfoote »

BrainNoMore wrote:Just for that banner I may start posting on MCF
I will probably do the exact same thing, as this is out of control.

Hopefully though, seeing a major mod like BTW protest this will cause a lot of people to start questioning what's happening, as well as hopefully getting more people to join the protest. After all, the more people that are against BWF, the better the chance of having something done about this. Right now though, the best thing for us to do is stand together as a community, get the word out, including trying to correctly inform people about what's happening, and help FlowerChild out the best that we can, including using that banner he suggested.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

walker_boh_65 wrote: Although I still don't quite understand why they are doing this, it certainly doesn't paint them in any good light as far as the public is concerned, which has been the whole bases for most of the things that they have done thus far.
From what I gathered from the video of the stream, it's a straight out troll, and on Lex's side straight out ego along the lines of "if you don't use my API, we will destroy you".

He can't tolerate anyone being able to stand alone in opposition of the system he's working on. The Forge community was predicting the death of BTW ever since I quit, and now that a year has gone by, and I got through the update to 1.3 way faster than most of the major Forge mods (and taking only two days longer than the Forge itself) when that was pretty much their last predicted hope of me not being able to handle it, and it's obvious I'm not going anywhere, they're trying to forcibly push me out of modding.

There's several fallacies in that line of reasoning mind you, first of all in that I don't think they really "get" the concept of me not giving a shit about popularity, which largely makes me immune to such attempts. The Forge community generally seems obsessed with popularity, even to the point that when SlowPoke tried to court me into FTB a few weeks ago, he seemed totally dismayed when I brushed off his arguments of increased downloads and popularity telling him that unless he had arguments about how this benefited *game play* I didn't want to hear them.

Secondly, in directly copying me they are basically saying "we don't have the creativity to come up with the ideas you do, and we really love those ideas", which of course leads to the "cut off your nose to spite your face" scenario which I've described above, where they're trying to push me out while neglecting that if they like my ideas now, they are likely to like those I come up with in the future as well, and that if they were actually successful in driving me out of modding, they'd thus be losing the benefit of any future contributions I would make.

And lastly, as I've mentioned above, and which ironically CheapShot of Technic has posted a statement to the same effect, while the Forge community states they are largely opposed to what Technic is doing, they have basically adopted an ideology that is equivalent to that of Technic's in terms of "the pleasure of the community trumps the rights of the modder, and we will use any means necessary to promote the former to the detriment of the latter". However, they still seem to be in opposition of Technic which really amounts to a huge degree of hypocrisy.

So no, it really doesn't make any sense when you take a close look at it, but from their own statements, I believe the above represents their point of view.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

icynewyear wrote:I just wanted to toss my 2 cents here. I was going to stay out of it completely but my name came up. I have nothing to do with the creation of BWF. I tried it out wit Mattabase on his stream out of curiosity. I'm a huge fan of BTW and quite simply ignore all the drama associated with both it and forge. The one thing I have done is create a few mods to add BTW breeding mechanics and Hardcore beds to my own forge based worlds. These are features that BTW has taught me I can't live without. With the creation of those two mods I mean no disrespect. As I have said I love BTW and various forge mods and do my damnedest to stay out of the drama. If I had know that Matta's stream would blow up like this I would have stayed away.
I tried to nip that witch-hunt from spreading above icy, and honestly, I didn't even vaguely suspect it was you. It would actually make very little sense for you to go through the trouble of making mods like the above if you were working on BWF.

I mentioned your breeding mod specifically in the related MCF thread last night as an example of how I don't have a problem with the concept of copying ideas in general, but that there are specific instances (like with this BWF thing) where I've objected when it has obviously gone too far. I was both aware of your mod before this drama started, and I did not choose to oppose it in any way.

So yeah man, just to say that there are no issues between us, and that I do not think that you have any need to worry about community backlash here on our end.
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SterlingRed
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by SterlingRed »

FlowerChild wrote:"the pleasure of the community our egos trumps the rights of the modder, and we will use any means necessary to promote the former to the detriment of the latter".
Fixed that for you man.
Mason11987
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Mason11987 »

FlowerChild wrote:Guys, I'd really like to put together a banner to help spread the word about my cause here, and so that people can show their support for what I'm going through with it.

I believe this is a general issue facing the modding community that is of interest to modders as a whole, and I'd like as much light to be cast on it as possible.

As a result, I'd like to ask for help from any artists within the community to create a banner along lines similar to the following:

What I envision is a Companion Cube on the left side (I think the stylized one from the current mod banner with the tear running down would be perfect), and a similarly stylized face wearing a Gimp Mask on the right.

Words along top reading with the slogan "No means no!", and down along the bottom "I support the independence of Better Than Wolves".

If anyone has some time on their hands and the artistic talent to really pull it off in style, I'd be very much obliged.
I'd love an avatar too if someone is going to pick this up. I still use the default on MCF, and this seems like the right time to put one up.
nukularpower
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by nukularpower »

icynewyear wrote:I just wanted to toss my 2 cents here. I was going to stay out of it completely but my name came up. I have nothing to do with the creation of BWF. I tried it out wit Mattabase on his stream out of curiosity. I'm a huge fan of BTW and quite simply ignore all the drama associated with both it and forge. The one thing I have done is create a few mods to add BTW breeding mechanics and Hardcore beds to my own forge based worlds. These are features that BTW has taught me I can't live without. With the creation of those two mods I mean no disrespect. As I have said I love BTW and various forge mods and do my damnedest to stay out of the drama. If I had know that Matta's stream would blow up like this I would have stayed away.
Well then, all apologies for bringing your name up undeservedly. It seemed logical to me at the moment, but on the other hand, I do watch your stream (quite a bit actually, gets me through work nicely) and always thought you are a cool guy, so it was a bit hard to reconcile. Seeing you on that BWF thing was a bit of a shocker though, so I guess I jumped at that. So yeah, sorry!
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EpicAaron
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by EpicAaron »

FlowerChild wrote:Guys, I'd really like to put together a banner to help spread the word about my cause here, and so that people can show their support for what I'm going through with it.

I believe this is a general issue facing the modding community that is of interest to modders as a whole, and I'd like as much light to be cast on it as possible.

As a result, I'd like to ask for help from any artists within the community to create a banner along lines similar to the following:

What I envision is a Companion Cube on the left side (I think the stylized one from the current mod banner with the tear running down would be perfect), and a similarly stylized face wearing a Gimp Mask on the right.

Words along top reading with the slogan "No means no!", and down along the bottom "I support the independence of Better Than Wolves".

If anyone has some time on their hands and the artistic talent to really pull it off in style, I'd be very much obliged.
I'll try something! Definately won't be the greatest artwork, but it will have my many souls put into it.
BTW Community Server Discord: https://discord.gg/arZpuYW
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Twololcats
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Twololcats »

Wow, has this really happened? why can't people just respect each others opinions and wishes?
I'll be honest, I like/respect both forge and modloader etc mods and I really don't care about compatibility etc. I can't see the mods working together very well anyways
but when things like this happen it just really pisses me off, especially since I imagined the forge guys as at least somewhat nice/cool people
I hope this is sorted out soon without (too much) trouble
rrusciguy
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by rrusciguy »

Twololcats wrote:Wow, has this really happened? why can't people just respect each others opinions and wishes?
I'll be honest, I like/respect both forge and modloader etc mods and I really don't care about compatibility etc. I can't see the mods working together very well anyways
but when things like this happen it just really pisses me off, especially since I imagined the forge guys as at least somewhat nice/cool people
I hope this is sorted out soon without (too much) trouble
It was good to see that cpw and FC are on at least somewhat good terms, but im honestly disappointed in Lex for supporting BWF at all. And i seriously dont understand all the grief people are giving FC for not going forge compatible. Its his choice whether or not he uses the forge API.
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Sarudak
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Sarudak »

I'm still confused about what LexManos was talking about when he said in the transcript

"I no longer feel it is nessasary to wait for you to do the right thing"

Like becoming part of the forge API is the right thing and not becoming part of it is somehow morally wrong???

What the hell?
rrusciguy
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by rrusciguy »

Sarudak wrote:I'm still confused about what LexManos was talking about when he said in the transcript

"I no longer feel it is nessasary to wait for you to do the right thing"

Like becoming part of the forge API is the right thing and not becoming part of it is somehow morally wrong???

What the hell?
ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY FORGE!

but back to seriousness:
was he drunk or something when he said that? cuz seriously.....

If FC wants to continue to not be "forge fiendly", let him. As much as i love other mods, they really would kinda ruin BTW's tech tree and all.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:I'm still confused about what LexManos was talking about when he said in the transcript

"I no longer feel it is nessasary to wait for you to do the right thing"

Like becoming part of the forge API is the right thing and not becoming part of it is somehow morally wrong???

What the hell?
Hehe...yup. I haven't even felt the need to bust that one out yet in the ongoing discussion, but it definitely raised an eyebrow for me as well :)
warmist
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by warmist »

rrusciguy wrote:
Sarudak wrote:I'm still confused about what LexManos was talking about when he said in the transcript

"I no longer feel it is nessasary to wait for you to do the right thing"

Like becoming part of the forge API is the right thing and not becoming part of it is somehow morally wrong???

What the hell?
ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY FORGE!

but back to seriousness:
was he drunk or something when he said that? cuz seriously.....

If FC wants to continue to not be "forge fiendly", let him. As much as i love other mods, they really would kinda ruin BTW's tech tree and all.
Yeah i would love to have a forge like system for a huge multi person modular mod (like the btw+btb was) but that would need HUGE effort on each modder to make everything consistent also a lot of game design (that does not happen in most forge mods) and while forge mods alone are nice, together they are disappointment. Where as btw goes forward and shows how to do it right again and again. I hope that FC will not get discouraged and I think that they will fail this BWF business on one hand it took FC this long to make BTW what it is so it should take them measurable amount of time too (maybe they can do it faster by using some of forge already in place code), secondly it is already causing anger in BTW community and e.g. i will not play it, and lastly if they will not copy everything exactly they will most probably add something of their own and thus brake it thinking that they improved it ( actually it's already broken by design if you can use it with all the forge mods).

The best solution would be for FC to get rich and hire legions of code monkeys that could churn out code while being whipped by FC :D
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Jeet
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Jeet »

Funny thing happened on my stream today. I had about 5 people in the room and I decided to put up the no means no banner and 3 left. :)

Didn't hurt my feelings at all either. Keep on rockin FlowerChild.
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Sarudak
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Sarudak »

warmist wrote: The best solution would be for FC to get rich and hire legions of code monkeys that could churn out code while being whipped by FC :D
I believe this IS the actual plan...
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Jeet wrote:Funny thing happened on my stream today. I had about 5 people in the room and I decided to put up the no means no banner and 3 left. :)

Didn't hurt my feelings at all either. Keep on rockin FlowerChild.
Lol! Thanks for the unpopular support man :)
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CycloneSP
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by CycloneSP »

Wow... just, wow.

I've read most of the thread as of now, and although I doubt I have anything to contribute to the discussion, I just wanted to let you know you have my support FC. Despite how little I may actually be able to do to contribute.

I pray this all blows over without too much more fuss. (with FC as the victor of course)
"So tell me, what's it like living in a constant haze of stupidity?" - Hiei

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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

CycloneSP wrote: I pray this all blows over without too much more fuss. (with FC as the victor of course)
The problem being that I don't think this can be resolved without as much fuss as humanly possible :)

For the most part, I really do want to just keep to myself in terms of the rest of the MC community and work on my own mod. I think what this basically amounts to on my part is shouting as loudly as possible "For fuck sake! Just leave me alone!"
abominare
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by abominare »

FlowerChild wrote:
CycloneSP wrote: I pray this all blows over without too much more fuss. (with FC as the victor of course)
The problem being that I don't think this can be resolved without as much fuss as humanly possible :)

For the most part, I really do want to just keep to myself in terms of the rest of the MC community and work on my own mod. I think what this basically amounts to on my part is shouting as loudly as possible "For fuck sake! Just leave me alone!"
I'm going to be as frank about the whole thing, and whether or not you want to hear this I want you to know I'm saying this as a long time fan of your work, some one who honestly feels that your hard work and dedication, and especially design philosophies put you on par with most professional devs.

Your absolute best bet at ending up on top from this situation is to really evaluate the way you interact with other modders. You are the George Patton of the modding community, absolutely brilliant and potentially (well in my opinion absolutely) the best in the scene but the way you interact with your peers can make you unpopular. Whether being too candid about your feelings of others, or just intentionally having to say how you feel hasn't left you with a lot of friends.

Now I know you're going to say that you don't care what the others think of you, and that you don't need them or their fancy forge to do what you want. However, now is the time that friends can be helpful. Sengir wouldn't have survived the tekkit vindictive bees issue if every other modder disliked him. He survived because he played the game and had allies to come and white knight for him.

You've spent a lot of time, unintentionally, burning bridges with other mod devs. Subconsciously or even consciously this is because you wanted to be left alone. You've attempted to make an Iron Curtain around BTW (hell some people call you Stalin). You should be more like Switzerland totally neutral and interested in doing your own things but really damn friendly with the skiing and hot chocolate when people come visit you. Even if its some what of a fascade at least acting cordial with people is useful.

If you don't like a fellow modder, then keep that to yourself smile and say a good word to them for the interview. Go out and reach out towards those you've had a bad relationship with, talk to them in a sincere and polite manner. Like say Eloraam, despite how you might feel about her, gently ask her how she would feel if some one just hijacked her mod releasing Red Power for newer versions while she works hard to try rewrite her code from the ground up, but first apologize for any bad blood that might have occurred whether you intended it or not and ask humbly ask for her help.

Talk to Lex again, apologize for calling him a nazi (even if he had it coming), if you were sincere about an earlier claim of thinking about moving btw to forge like you mentioned earlier in a thread then play nice and ask him to at least let the other guy know that you've been thinking about it but want to do it on your time.

I know you've built up such a thick skin from having to deal with trolls and haters, but know that other modders might not have, and don't think that they should against other modders. Know that because you know you're better than them isn't reason to inform them of the ills of their ways. You don't tell nancy from accounting that shes a human wasteland when you need her to release next quarters figures for your big project review to the upper management guys.

If you don't this is going to be a costly battle you might not win, the road to Germany for patton/Allied Forces relied on not blowing up every bridge to Berlin.
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