I need the Turtles back: please help

[FlowerChild]

Ok guys, one thing that has become clear to me after both of the last two version updates resulted in SMP crash bugs, is that I need the Flying Turtles back.

One of the roles the Turtles were beginning to play before their untimely demise is in testing pre-release versions of BTW on occasion. We actually only did it once when the mod first went SMP, but that was the only MC version update that occurred during that period, and it was something I was counting on in the future. You guys can see the end result in how not having them available for that testing is resulting in buggy releases, as my capacity for testing for SMP locally is extremely limited.

So, I'd like to put out a call for help from the community, as the Turtles not being around is interfering with the ongoing development of the mod.

Honestly, I don't know who the leak was in the Turtles. I've taken a few guesses, but I have no way to be sure. Without knowing that though, I'm not at all comfortable reforming the group, as I'll never trust it again, and I certainly won't trust it enough to give people pre-release versions of the mod, as them being leaked to the public would be a tech support nightmare.

So, in the hopes that whomever leaked those posts did it because they thought it was the "right" thing to do, and wasn't simply trying to sabotage the mod from the inside, I'd like to make the following request and offer:

Can whomever was responsible please PM me and just let me know who you are? I don't want to engage in a conversation about it. I don't want to punish you for it. I don't want to tell anyone else who you are. Basically, I'm offering total immunity and discretion on this one, and not even asking for an explanation. The really important part to me is just being able to restore the Turtles as a group so I can properly test important releases (like MC version updates) in a manner that I feel is appropriate.

Anyways, I'd REALLY appreciate it if the person in question would step forward so that we can just move ahead and leave this unfortunate period behind.

[Extreme Boyheat]

Do the right thing mate. :)

[BrainNoMore]

I post rarely but I hope things will get resolved somehow...

[Flesh_Engine]

Hope this works out well for everyone!

[Thieme]

I hope the person in question will come forward now for your sake and for anyone playing the mod. Not being able to have trustworthy beta testers really hurts releases.

[Gdnite]

Does this mean start a witch hunt!? *Grabs torch and pitchfork*

(In all seriousness tho I do hope you can learn to trust your turtles soon)

[FlowerChild]

Does this mean start a witch hunt!? *Grabs torch and pitchfork*

This is the exact opposite of a witch hunt man.

[Gdnite]

I know, It was more me trying to create overly dramatic humor. I do hope you regain a quanta of your trust tho.

[FlowerChild]

I do hope you regain a quanta of your trust tho.

I don't think that's on me man.

[TheAnarchitect]

Some of it is.

You deturtled all of us over the actions of one person. You've also on more than one occasion deturtled or banned respected members of the community with no explanation. I thought being a turtle meant that we had your respect, but your actions over the last few months have shown that isn't true. There's been a loss of trust and respect for more people than just you here.

Right now, if you extended me the invitation to become a turtle again, I wouldn't take it. I don't want to become emotionally invested in a community where one person can cut me off from part or all of it on a whim.

[FlowerChild]

Right now, if you extended me the invitation to become a turtle again, I wouldn't take it. I don't want to become emotionally invested in a community where one person can cut me off from part or all of it on a whim.

No worries there man, as after the above, I wouldn't extend that invitation anyways.

Yes, the Turtles were a group of people that I respected and trusted. That respect can be gained and lost, and I in no way feel the need to explain my actions to the others that are part of the group when that happens.

In this case, my not insignificant respect for you was just lost entirely, but I don't think the reasons for that are at all ambiguous.

[Rianaru]

I think part of what he may have been trying to say is that it's difficult to develop complete trust in a group where one person has power over the others. This is not detracting from your ability to lead or moderate the group, FC, just something that I was taught in psychology and that I've noticed(to a lesser extent) in real life. The solution might be to decrease any one persons powers over that group and allow full trust to develop in certain people over time. This would be the long and arduous road, but in my opinion, it is the only way to fully trust someone and have them trust you in return.

[FlowerChild]

I think part of what he may have been trying to say is that it's difficult to develop complete trust in a group where one person has power over the others. This is not detracting from your ability to lead or moderate the group, FC, just something that I was taught in psychology and that I've noticed(to a lesser extent) in real life. The solution might be to decrease any one persons powers over that group and allow full trust to develop in certain people over time. This would be the long and arduous road, but in my opinion, it is the only way to fully trust someone and have them trust you in return.

That's all very interesting man, but within this context, I don't particularly care, nor do I feel you've contributed anything here.

IMO, the community revolves around the mod and its development, not the other way around. When people become a liability or are disruptive to that process, I cut them off from the community, no questions asked, and with no regrets.

That's exactly what happened to Anarch above, and he's no longer with us as a result. Does that sadden me? Of course. Will I allow myself to get dragged down by that thereby affecting the mod's development? Hell no.

I'm not here to make friends, build a community, for the sake of popularity, or to be a nice guy. I'm here to develop a mod, and everything else is secondary to that.

Anarch's little outburst and general lack of understanding as to the factors involved here caused me to lose about a days worth of potential work on the mod due to the disruption it caused me. I will only ever let someone do that once, no matter how important they've been to me in the past.

Again, I'm not interested in discussing whatever people believe is the root cause here. I'm interested in restoring the Turtles so that we can move beyond these unfortunate events. In order to do so, I need to know who it was that was responsible for the leak, as I can not begin to have trust in the group again until I know that.

[Rianaru]

I realize all this, and I'm sorry that I couldn't help. I was mostly trying to imagine a scenario in which the person you were referring to in the OP did not come forward and it was necessary to start from scratch or somewhere near there. In any case, I hope the situation is resolved quickly and without much detriment to the mod.

[Sarudak]

I think part of what he may have been trying to say is that it's difficult to develop complete trust in a group where one person has power over the others. This is not detracting from your ability to lead or moderate the group, FC, just something that I was taught in psychology and that I've noticed(to a lesser extent) in real life. The solution might be to decrease any one persons powers over that group and allow full trust to develop in certain people over time. This would be the long and arduous road, but in my opinion, it is the only way to fully trust someone and have them trust you in return.

Ok guys... I know this is a cool community and all that jazz... But the truth is it's a forum for a mod to a game. Really that's all. As FC says it's not about building trust or making a great community. It's about FC making his mod and this is a convenient way to organize discussions around and support of the mod. FC could ban me at any time with no explanations or whatever and that would be within his rights to do so seeing as how he's the one who's spent thousands of hours of his life making a mod that we all enjoy not me. As for the rest of you not pouring thousands of hours of you life into this labor of love I say please lighten up and remember where you are. And if you want to continue to be a part of this community then I suggest you focus on being constructive and provide positive contributions. That's why I'm still here.

[walker_boh_65]

Could it be that the person(s) (not ruling anything out) responsible is no longer active on the forums?

[Folrig]

I thought you're repsonse to the backstab was remarakbly level headed. You didn't know who it was. So, you didn't start accusing people, you didn't let people start accusing others, you wouldn't let a witch hunt start. You cut off a corner of fabric, and prevented the tapestry from unraveling.

Now, however (overly) dramatic my analogy may have been, you cut the drama off before it could grow and hurt someone. As a result you had to sever yourself from others you trusted. When it comes to people in a community that's not a small sacrifice. It's always a shame when many have to suffer because of one.

It's already been said many times, FC, I'm sorry this happened to you. I hope you get your beta Turtles back.

[FlowerChild]

Could it be that the person(s) (not ruling anything out) responsible is no longer active on the forums?

Yup, it's entirely possible, and I haven't ruled that out either. I created this thread "just in case" a number of things.

Just in case that person is still here.

Just in case they leaked that stuff thinking it was the right thing to do, and not because they had intended to disrupt the development of the mod. Heck, it's definitely occurred to me that they may have only intended to "leak" that stuff to the moderator they sent it to in confidence, and that it may have been the mod himself that betrayed them as well by making it public. Given the mod's later behavior, it's a scenario that certainly fits, so this may have gotten out of control way beyond the point they thought it would have.

Just in case they care about the development of the mod enough to fess up to it so that I can restore the Turtles to help me in testing pre-releases of the mod.

That's an awful lot of variables, and I wouldn't even say it's probable that I'll get any kind of positive resolution out of it. However, "just in case" I did feel the need to put this request out there.

But without knowing for certain, I just can't restore the Turtles as they'd be largely useless in their intended role. Without that trust, there's no point having the group around at all, because I'd have to consider anything posted/discussed/released within the Turtle forum as public. At that point there's no reason why I wouldn't just post it in general discussion and cut out the middle man.

I thought that would be implicitly understood as the reason behind why I shut down the Turtles to begin with. I wasn't aiming to punish anyone, or because I was pissed at you guys. There was just no point having the group around when any "private" conversation that might evolve between us was a potential liability. The group was never intended as a social club.

But...obviously some people didn't understand that, or chose to take it as some kind of personal insult when I shut it down. I don't at all understand that, but whatever.

[jorgebonafe]

FC, I remember you mentioned you had narrowed down the list of "suspects", for lack of a better word, but couldn't be sure who it was among them... Have you considered just cuting them all of the group? I realize that would be a harsh way to deal with the situation, and that innocent people would be punished in the process, but if this would be helpful to the future development of the mod, maybe it would be worth it... (hey, I could be on that list as far as I know... Either way I would understand and support you should you decide to do just that.)

[FlowerChild]

FC, I remember you mentioned you had narrowed down the list of "suspects", for lack of a better word, but couldn't be sure who it was among them... Have you considered just cuting them all of the group? I realize that would be a harsh way to deal with the situation, and that innocent people would be punished in the process, but if this would be helpful to the future development of the mod, maybe it would be worth it... (hey, I could be on that list as far as I know... Either way I would understand and support you should you decide to do just that.)

Well, "suspects" is the right word man, so again, I couldn't be certain, and thus I know I wouldn't be able to be trusting under those circumstances.

Knowing is really the only way out of this quagmire at this point, and that's entirely dependent on the good will of whomever did this to begin with.

[hawkcannon]

Until the issue of the Turtles is resolved, perhaps you could give a small test group copies of the mod signed with their username to test? Each tester would get a slightly different version of the mod, so if anyone leaked the mod, you would know who to ban.

[Ferrus.Manus]

Until the issue of the Turtles is resolved, perhaps you could give a small test group copies of the mod signed with their username to test? Each tester would get a slightly different version of the mod, so if anyone leaked the mod, you would know who to ban.

Way too much effort IMO and time consumed for very little gain.

[BinoAl]

As FC says it's not about building trust or making a great community. It's about FC making his mod and this is a convenient way to organize discussions around and support of the mod. FC could ban me at any time with no explanations or whatever and that would be within his rights to do so seeing as how he's the one who's spent thousands of hours of his life making a mod that we all enjoy not me.

Yeah, as much as I love this community, I agree. This community is meant first and foremost as a place of discussion and development of Better Than Wolves, and however FC chooses to manage the community is his choice. Openly questioning or disagreeing with his choices acts against the overall goal of the community

[hawkcannon]

Until the issue of the Turtles is resolved, perhaps you could give a small test group copies of the mod signed with their username to test? Each tester would get a slightly different version of the mod, so if anyone leaked the mod, you would know who to ban.

Way too much effort IMO and time consumed for very little gain.

It would take a fair bit of effort, especially if the test builds were shared with Mediafire instead of email. I suppose it depends on whether the features need enough testing to warrant the time spent on additional security. Fortunately, he'd only have to sign the builds until the leaker is identified or he's confident that anyone who would leak the mod was banned already.

[morvelaira]

Why bother with that level of trial and error when the possibility of secure testing exists?