Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

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FlowerChild
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Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by FlowerChild »

Another week, another round of feature development :)

As always, rules for this thread:

-DO NOT post suggestions.
-DO NOT critique unreleased features. Wait until you've had a chance to try them before passing judgement.

With that out of the way:

This week I'm largely focusing on anarchy play, and as a result, I thought I'd post a screenshot of my most recent contribution to an anarchy server:
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The underlying statue is the creation of Anarchitect over on Jadedcat's anarchy server, as he was attempting to create a central meeting location for players to gather in a friendly environment. The improvements are my own, and an indication that not everyone agrees with his plans for unification and cooperation :)

On that note, I have a release in the works that adds several improvements to the way anarchy play works. As I've discussed before, Hardcore Spawn is part of this, but there are several other tweaks on the way as well, since me playing in a particular mode tends to result in me spotting problems that need addressing.

Anyways, I'll leave most of this as a surprise, as the release shouldn't be too far off now. I was originally planning to get it out Saturday, but as is typical for me wound up in a cycle of "oh...just want to add this one other thing" :)

Additionally of course, my changes to Endermen behavior will also be a part of this release. There's actually one last refinement I want to get into those as well for this release, and a couple of more that I'll leave to a later date. In retrospect, I think the approach I am taking now is actually better than the "Hardcore Mobs" one that I had in mind before (as cool as those ideas were, and despite how much I am looking forward to playing with them in effect). The changes I am making now are far more subtle than what I had intended there, and as a result, I am comfortable with them being non-optional. I'll leave the more hardcore ideas (which are largely about your bases being attacked) for a more suitable point in the mod's development that is on its way down the road. The problem with more destructive mobs being that many people are already playing on well established worlds without the necessary defenses in place, so they'd either have to abandon those worlds and start new ones, turn the option off, or potentially have their constructions ripped to shreds rather unfairly as they weren't aware they'd need these defenses to begin with.

So yeah, in the end I decided it's best to wait on that kind of thing for a time when it will be more appropriate. As you guys know, I'm a big fan of defensive structures, and really want that kind of gameplay in BTW, but the timing is just not right yet. A day is coming though when it will be ideally suited to the mod without the negative consequences I describe above.

So, with that in mind, I'll also likely be doing passes on the other mobs in the game here and there in this more sedate style over the next few weeks. I have some plans for zombies in particular that I think will make them much more interesting without unleashing total havoc. Endermen were definitely the ones that required the most work though, with the other ones just needing a little bit of TLC to get into a shape I'll be satisfied with. Once I'm done, I suspect going out at night will be rather hazardous to your health, which is how I really think it should be. We've got night back in the game with Hardcore Bedding, now I want to make sure that night is to be feared again.

On a personal note, I must say that I'm quite enjoying playing around with game AI again. There was a time in my career where I was considered a bit of an AI specialist, and it's not really a skill that I've made use of during my time working on BTW. It's definitely fun from a design standpoint to be considering behavioral changes to the MC monsters, as AI is probably one of the areas where the line between design and programming is the blurriest. When I say "AI", I'm not talking about making mobs "smarter" btw, so this isn't about path-finding or other more advanced AI that I personally don't think has a place in MC to begin with. What I'm largely talking about is giving mobs interesting behaviors that make them more believable to the player, gives them a sense of having a purpose within the world and a "life" beyond what occurs on screen, and which provide additional challenges through their combined actions. To me, good game AI isn't about giving NPC's any level of real intelligence: it's about making them interesting and believable from the player's perspective.

Anyways, I think you'll see what I mean when the Endermen changes are released, as that's largely the approach I've taken with them, and I'm extremely happy with the results.

I guess I will wrap this diary up there, as I've already rambled on far more than I intended :)
Mason11987
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Mason11987 »

Thanks for the insight, can't see what's on the horizon.
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Sarudak
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Sarudak »

I'm really excited about this! I'm all for things that make the game more challenging!
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danielngtiger
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by danielngtiger »

FlowerChild wrote: my most recent contribution to an anarchy server:
LOL!! I'm super excited for these changes now, having recently tried anarchy on Jade's server. I'm also liking the hints on future releases this ramble gives :P
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by justcallmecloud »

FlowerChild wrote:We've got night back in the game with Hardcore Bedding, now I want to make sure that night is to be feared again.
I am definitely looking forward into the night being something feared. I hardly leave the safety of my village unless I am looking for clay and wander a little. During the night time I can just sort of hack and slash and continue to explore. A lack of beds and a more challenging night would definitely encourage mini bases spread out to have a temporary location to stock up on food and have a temporary shelter.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Gormador »

Oh man this is gonna be cool ! I guess we'll have to strengthen our defenses then... However, something tells me that walls won't be everything it will take to stop them.

You're really trying to make us paranoid, are you ? :p

Thanks for your work !
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by PatrickSJ »

FlowerChild wrote: So, with that in mind, I'll also likely be doing passes on the other mobs in the game here and there in this more sedate style over the next few weeks. I have some plans for zombies in particular that I think will make them much more interesting without unleashing total havoc. Endermen were definitely the ones that required the most work though, with the other ones just needing a little bit of TLC to get into a shape I'll be satisfied with. Once I'm done, I suspect going out at night will be rather hazardous to your health, which is how I really think it should be. We've got night back in the game with Hardcore Bedding, now I want to make sure that night is to be feared again.
My imagination is running and it is making me scared. This is going to make the game's building designs much, much more strategic. Balance layouts to account for defense, supply chain, & convenience.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Ozziie »

FlowerChild wrote:I have some plans for zombies in particular that I think will make them much more interesting without unleashing total havoc.
Zombies will soon be able to hold weapons that they pick up. Who's saying it has to be weapons? Imagine if a zombie picked up or spawned with a shovel and could dig under the dirt floor that you thought was safe on the other side of your walls. *Shudder*
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by utakataJ6 »

Wow... that sounds pretty entertaining overall. It's only been since you recently pointed it out that I've paid enough attention to mobs to notice their newly-flawed behavior (such as how few game updates they receive.) Now that I'm conscious of it, I can see the vast potential for improvement, and happily await any tweaks you spin on them.
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logorouge
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by logorouge »

I usually try to stay quiet and lurk, but I have to say I thoroughly enjoy this diary of yours. Reading about the constant evolution of the mod and the thought process behind it is fascinating, as always. Even when away from Minecraft, I still come here to read it. Not to mention, it's giving me back hope that no matter what, you'll revert/change/improve any aspect of Minecraft to make it a better game. (Bringing back the fear of the night? Bring it on!) Also, thanks for the changes to the Endermen's behavior, it was driving me crazy.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by dawnraider »

The thing that annoys me msot about mobs is how few updates they get. I have walked up to a skeleton and killed it with a stone sword without it even firing at all, making them hardly a challenge. Thoughts are reeling in my head about what you will do.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Dreambolt »

Well I for one am excited to hear your really thinking about making defenses an important part of BTW. I'm one to add extra defenses to my base for the giggles (I made a mountain into my base, and use piston doors for my main entrances), but it would be nice to actually need to use them. Well Regardless, almost everything you've added I've thoroughly enjoyed, so I think anyone who truly plays the mod would agree your judgement on game play aspects is exceptional.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by TheAnarchitect »

I'm waiting until some of these changes you hint at are in effect before starting a new single player game. I want to know what the challenge is before I start designing defenses.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Six »

dawnraider wrote:The thing that annoys me msot about mobs is how few updates they get. I have walked up to a skeleton and killed it with a stone sword without it even firing at all, making them hardly a challenge. Thoughts are reeling in my head about what you will do.
It's funny how this was the result making the AI better able to navigate the landscape.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by FlowerChild »

Guys: I think many of you are misunderstanding my post. The changes that will require increased defenses are coming later...probably *much* later. The point I was trying to make is that I am postponing them until a later date when they fit the mod better.

The changes I am making to mob AI now and in the near future are of a much more subtle nature.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Gormador »

FlowerChild wrote:Guys: I think many of you are misunderstanding my post. The changes that will require increased defenses are coming later...probably *much* later. The point I was trying to make is that I am postponing them until a later date when they fit the mod better.

The changes I am making to mob AI now and in the near future are of a much more subtle nature.
Yes, but it doesn't make those upcoming changes – even if they're a little while down the road – less exciting or scary ;-) Because it most certainly will be a massive change – the kind that mobs need to be interesting – given the fact that you say being "a bit" of a specialist and seem to have a clear idea of what you want to achieve.

And in my understanding, a "faked intelligence" would probably have a greater impact than a " 'real' intelligence" as zombies (and co.) wouldn't waist time pretending they know what the f*** they're doing and not acting by instinct. At least that's what my brain got from your first post on this thread...


Anyway, as you say, we're not quite there yet. But hey!, we're just excited by the awesomeness that you are designing for us ! :-)
Thank you for that.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by barcode »

I'm totally excited to see the changes you are working on. Mobs are ridiculous as they are right now. The only challenge that remains for me is that a creeper sneeks up to you while you are engaged in a fight with a few other mobs.

Also, having to build defensive structures around your base sounds like quite a task. We're not that far along yet on my server, but since BTW requires more buildings than just a storage room and a bedroom, having to protect the entire base will mean a lot of resources - so stacking up won't be a bad idea, huh?

There aren't a lot of things that I can imagine yet that you're wanting to improve on the mobs right now, if I would take a guess I'd say you're making Zombies attack your livestock or something... some passive threats... and Endermen ripping massive holes in your wall, or building paths into your base.... ;) I'm excited to see what's up your sleeve, there is an Invasion mod that I've been wanting to test for a while - I guess I won't have to bother anymore soon... ;)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by tedium »

haha sounds awesome FC... i'm envisioning a world were zombies are actually zombies, not just reskinned goomba's from mario brothers. i'd go into details of that vision, but i wouldn't want to come across like someone making suggestions ;) i'm just excited that it sounds like i'll get some ambience back into my minecraft. one of the reasons i'm finding myself playing less and less minecraft these days is that i only am ever really in danger during the first few weeks, when i hunt at night while under-equipped. to be honest, at this point you wouldn't even have to improve the mobs, just change them so i'm cautious again... but of course you know better than that =D
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Ulfengaard »

barcode wrote:(mod reference)
Dude, not cool.

@FC: I'm very excited to see these 'subtle' changes. As you continue working on the mod, I look forward to the mobs feeling scary again. As it is, now, I just throw up a curtain wall around any of the land I want to take, and then I dot it with torches. Voila. No more mobs.

Thanks for the hard work, man.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Sarudak »

Question. Are you going to be simplifying the AI at all such that you can increase the update frequency such that all the mods don't seem so much like they were dropped on their heads as children?
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:Question. Are you going to be simplifying the AI at all such that you can increase the update frequency such that all the mods don't seem so much like they were dropped on their heads as children?
Not now, but likely at a later date. I'm at least going to see what Mojang does with 1.4 before deciding if that was just a bug or if they really intended it. I suspect they intended it, but want to be certain before I spend any time on it which could potentially go to waste if it's just a bug.

For now, all my changes are behavioral. I'm not focusing on that kind of issue.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by DocLazy »

Thank the flying spaghetti monsters. The current AI is just awful. Notch's simpler original AI was a hell of a lot better at making mobs semi interesting. Going caving use to be something that was feared. At any moment a platoon of creepers could wander down the dark cave you are exploring or even worse silently drop through a hole in the roof, in both cases hilarity would ensue. The most action I get now is having a staring competition with skeles. Who don't seem to shoot below themselves, or even move. I also miss suicidal mobs. Having them occasionally fall of a cliff was a great feature that added a bit of character to the game. However mobs stuck in a tree or side of the cliff for the entire game just shows how simple and retarded the current AI is.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by Ferrus.Manus »

DocLazy wrote:Thank the flying spaghetti monsters. The current AI is just awful. Notch's simpler original AI was a hell of a lot better at making mobs semi interesting. Going caving use to be something that was feared. At any moment a platoon of creepers could wander down the dark cave you are exploring or even worse silently drop through a hole in the roof, in both cases hilarity would ensue. The most action I get now is having a staring competition with skelies. Who don't seem to shoot below themselves, or even move. I also miss suicidal mobs. Having them occasionally fall of a cliff was a great feature that added a bit of character to the game. However mobs stuck in a tree or side of the cliff for the entire game just shows how simple and retarded the current AI is.
Actually it's (mostly) fixed in new snapshot, mobs jump of cliff to attack you if jump is short enaugh to not kill them (I think only on hard though). Also creepers detonate faster depending how much damage they took from the fall.
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barcode
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by barcode »

Ulfengaard wrote: Dude, not cool.
Explain, please.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 8th)

Post by EvanT »

barcode wrote:
Ulfengaard wrote: Dude, not cool.
Explain, please.
You mentioned (including a link) another mod while your post was more like "will not need it any more soon" it is just "not cool".

People used to say something along the lines of "Hey Flower look at this [mod]! I want you to implement that feature too! NOWZ!"
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