So I was looking at the page for the Invasion mod, and saw this:
Lieu wrote:As of v3.x of Forge, they are dropping ModloaderMp and pursuing the new FML(Forge Modloader) as their solution. So, Forge will be Modloader + FML only. This means the current release of Invasion Mod is incompatible with Forge in 1.2.5. For example, the nexus GUI does not open in SP and crashes if on a server.
I thought the new acronym was delightfully ironic. Anyway though, does this new modloader mean that forge will have more/less compatibility? As someone who does not understand much of Minecraft's code, I was just wondering if anyone else knows anything about this change.
NOTE: By compatibility, I do not imply any thoughts towards BTW compatibility, just other mods.
This is rather old news man. They aren't dropping ModLoader btw, just ModloaderMP. I really don't know how much impact that has on compatibility with non-Forge mods, but I suspect it will only relate to SMP mods that may use ModLoaderMP.
FlowerChild wrote:This is rather old news man. They aren't dropping ModLoader btw, just ModloaderMP. I really don't know how much impact that has on compatibility with non-Forge mods, but I suspect it will only relate to SMP mods that may use ModLoaderMP.
Yes, that is old news, but in a strange coincidence, this is actually true. According to Pahimar, it's plain modloader that they've just recently started overwriting the class files of. I'm assured that this won't cause non-forge modloader mods to crash, but it is true that forge is editing modloader classes now.
What's the price of freedom now?
Can you cut me a deal?
A crate of wholesale liberty,
or a justice combo meal?
RaustBlackDragon wrote:
Yes, that is old news, but in a strange coincidence, this is actually true. According to Pahimar, it's plain modloader that they've just recently started overwriting the class files of. I'm assured that this won't cause non-forge modloader mods to crash, but it is true that forge is editing modloader classes now.
I think that's almost always been the case man. Isn't Block.java a ModLoader modified file?
RaustBlackDragon wrote:
Yes, that is old news, but in a strange coincidence, this is actually true. According to Pahimar, it's plain modloader that they've just recently started overwriting the class files of. I'm assured that this won't cause non-forge modloader mods to crash, but it is true that forge is editing modloader classes now.
I think that's almost always been the case man. Isn't Block.java a ModLoader modified file?
Well SOMETHING's changed recently... here's the changelog notes:
#109: We now use Forge ModLoader Client, meaning we no longer rely on ModLoader.
This means that for the source distrabution, you need NOTHING in your client or server jar in MCP.
For the Binary distrabution, this means you do not need to download/install ModLoader on the client anymore.
What's the price of freedom now?
Can you cut me a deal?
A crate of wholesale liberty,
or a justice combo meal?
RaustBlackDragon wrote:
#109: We now use Forge ModLoader Client, meaning we no longer rely on ModLoader.
This means that for the source distrabution, you need NOTHING in your client or server jar in MCP.
For the Binary distrabution, this means you do not need to download/install ModLoader on the client anymore.
Oh wow. Yeah, that's new. I suspect Risugami isn't happy about that one.
I wouldn't be happy either if my work and a major source of downloads was suddenly just replaced... particularly by certain people... though I won't say more than that.
She-who-bears the right of Prima Squee-ti
I make BTW videos! http://www.youtube.com/user/morvelaira
The kitten is traumatized by stupid. Please stop abusing the kitten.
I will add one small 'wtf?' to this actually. The decision to replace ModloaderMP when the mod-API and integrated client/server was on its way really made no sense to me to begin with.
Now, replacing ML itself with the same on its way, and with the functionality provided by Modloader being one of the first things that an official API would really have to contain, is rather messed-up IMO.
Seriously, it strikes me like someone is going through their todo list rushing to implement features before they are made obsolete and stirring up a bunch of unnecessary trouble in the process. It's like if I had seen that the extended textures were coming to MC and suddenly decided that I better get rid of the remaining Forge functionality in BTW before that work became totally irrelevant.
Anyways, again, whatever, as it doesn't affect me in the least, but I do think it at least warrants a 'wtf?' about what the Forge developers are doing right now. My only guess is that they're trying to make Forge incompatible with as many non-Forge mods as possible to try and strong-arm them into converting over, before the functionality that normally draws people to Forge becomes irrelevant.
FlowerChild wrote:
Anyways, again, whatever, as it doesn't affect me in the least, but I do think it at least warrants a 'wtf?' about what the Forge developers are doing right now. My only guess is that they're trying to make Forge incompatible with as many non-Forge mods as possible to try and strong-arm them into converting over, before the functionality that normally draws people to Forge becomes irrelevant.
That was my suspicion at first, but I've been assured that there's no intention of doing that at all, and that all modloader-only mods still work with forge. If this turns out to not be true, that would just be sad on so many levels.
What's the price of freedom now?
Can you cut me a deal?
A crate of wholesale liberty,
or a justice combo meal?
Well, if I recall correctly, the reasoning went like this:
ModLoader lacks a a lot of basic functionality that a lot of people have been asking for. Risugami is refusing any of the requests, even the really necessary ones, so people were getting a bit fed-up with ML. As a response, the Forge team went with a "fuck it, we'll just write our own then".
I'm not against it, I know how stubborn Risugami can get, but I hope it really was a last resort thing, as it's not the ideal situation.
Even still, it doesn't make any sense to me why they would do it NOW as opposed to see what 1.3 will bring. I'd put money down on 1.3 coming out before August, and even if it's not the be all end all that we're hoping for, it's going to be a significant game changer.
She-who-bears the right of Prima Squee-ti
I make BTW videos! http://www.youtube.com/user/morvelaira
The kitten is traumatized by stupid. Please stop abusing the kitten.
Gilberreke wrote:Well, if I recall correctly, the reasoning went like this:
ModLoader lacks a a lot of basic functionality that a lot of people have been asking for. Risugami is refusing any of the requests, even the really necessary ones, so people were getting a bit fed-up with ML. As a response, the Forge team went with a "fuck it, we'll just write our own then".
I'm not against it, I know how stubborn Risugami can get, but I hope it really was a last resort thing, as it's not the ideal situation.
Heck, I made that argument myself when I was still part of the Forge team man. This has thus been an outstanding issue for a very long time indeed.
Well, they have been working on FML since before the 1.3 announcements, that could explain it. FML was first mentioned in early March or something like that.
Gilberreke wrote:
Well, they have been working on FML since before the 1.3 announcements, that could explain it. FML was first mentioned in early March or something like that.
But yeah, the timing is a bit weird.
You'll forgive me if I wind up laughing every time someone says "FML" in this context :)
Yeah, the whole thing seems super fishy to me man. Again, it doesn't directly concern me, but something odd seems to be going on there.
FlowerChild wrote:You'll forgive me if I wind up laughing every time someone says "FML" in this context :)
I'm not familiar with the term... I'm sorry to ask this, but could someone "explain the joke" please? :P
Sarudak wrote:I'm not familiar with what FML is supposed to mean either.
Fuck my life.
For any children viewing this post, I apologize for using foul language, on Father's Day at that. As a father, I would lock you in the basement for the night were you to repeat that at my dinner table. So pretend your little virgin eyes didn't even read it.
Last edited by Ribky on Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The spice must flow...
[03:28] <Detritus_> Weird, I'm still logged in her
FlowerChild wrote:Yeah, the whole thing seems super fishy to me man. Again, it doesn't directly concern me, but something odd seems to be going on there.
It does sound fishy, I'm not naive :). I'm just the kind of guy that always expects people to do the good thing first
I guess they are banking on the MC-API not being complete enough at initial release to do everything it needs to do, and even if it is who the hell really knows how long it will take them to get it out finally. Mojang could get knee deep into it and have to delay it for another update, or full functionality might take months more. It is a fair estimation that many modders will continue to update and support the non-API versions until they get comfortable with the API or the functionality they need to added to it.
Reminds me very much of the Steam Workshop for Skyrim vs The Nexus websites.
FlowerChild wrote:Isn't that the definition of naive? :)
I kinda try to apply Seneca to it. I expect people to do the good thing, but am prepared for the worst. That way I'm never surprised by the bad thing, but I get to live like a happy little hippie, hugging trees and shit.
FC if you want to hop on irc we can have a discussion on the indepth reasons for doing this, but just to summarize. We got tired of 1) Risugami's lack of giving a shit about the community/modders 2) Risugami's lack of giving a definitive answer on the legality of including a core dependency {modloader} in mod packs (<~~The main reason)
FML is 100% compatible with any mod that used the old ModLoader functionality. There are some edge cases where mods do some hackish things to get around Risu not coding things properly, but for the most part we accomidate those as well.
And we are constantly fixing up things if they arise. So the whole issue of compatibility should be a moot point. There is no strong arming going on here.
As for why we did it now, because why not? 1.3 will not have the modidng API, 1.3 will have a few things in the right direction, but we are garenteed at least the 1.3-1.4 gap of functionality, and looking at Mojang's release time, that'd be another 6 months of illegal modpacks, at least.
And when it does come out, ML will do it's thing. And we will do ours, but ours will be completely compatible with ML's.
As for the name, the Original name Was FMLMP, Officially 'Forge ModLoaderMP' but yes it was intentional to be snickered at '____ ModLoaderMP' cuz MLMP couldn't do it's job right. Hence the reason we are incompatible, if it had done its job right we wouldn't be incompatible.
The FML part however is not a slight at Risu. Risu is a good guy, he just doesn't know how to handle the position he is in correctly. Being the corner stone of all modding and then screwing everyone over... Not a good decision.
None of this was done to spite Risu, or to be vindictive, it's just something that needed to be done.
But ya, poped in cuz someone brought it up, FC, you know you're always welcome to come talk to me if you want to actually understand my reasoning. Back to lurking in irc.
