Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

The place to talk about how BTW might be different
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Epsilon
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:26 pm

Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by Epsilon »

First off, some information about me:

I've been a part of the community since July 2011, with a different account back then. I was young and did not know when to stop expressing my ideas ;) (Apparently I've not learned my lesson :P )
Over the years I've made some useful contributions, such as picking up and continuing the tech-tree-visualisation that now is in need of updates regarding CE.
Also, I've always been interested to get into modding myself. Sadly, my first attempt at it failed as I didn't manage to decompile, recompile and get the unmodded thing running again. But as of now, it appears to be as easy as never before to start my journey of converting my thoughts into code and gameplay myself.
In the meantime I also acquired good knowledge about java and therefore feel confident that I can get this going soon.

This thread is therefore meant to be a collection of things I would like to look into. Maybe for some of them, other modders already have things in the works. Hopefully I will also get some direction of what is "easier" and what is "harder" to tackle first.
I've tried to sort these ideas somewhat, but it likely will appear as a rather strange puzzle of concepts.

  • Windmill-Collider
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    I was wondering if it were possible to change the windmills' collider to something more fitting, instead of its rectangle. Thus allowing players to "pass through it", and maybe get hurt and/or breaking the windmill in case they collide with one of the rotating arms.
  • More Movement
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    There is this Smart-Movement-Mod that has a versions going back to Minecraft 1.0 .
    Whilst I'm not a fan of all things this mod introduces, there are some that I personally believe could fit BTW CE (or more precisely my future mod) quite well:
    • Crawling: being able to lay flat on the ground and crawl through 1x1 spaces
    • Climbing Walls with holes: basically allowing players to grab on any horizontal block-edge visible out in the world. Thus, enabling free climbing, and pulling up 2 block high walls.
      This could be combined quite nicely with variations of Smooth-Stone-Blocks, that have some 1/8th parts cut out, spawning naturally. Thus making the world more climbable.
    • Over Head Climbing: extending the above point, the mod also allows grabbing things overhead and climb along them.
    Really, the Video on the mods site explains most of the stuff quite well.
    I also believe this could be integrated with BTW/CE quite nicely.
    • Climbing/Crawling consumes food faster, similar to sprinting.
    • Wearing heavy armor further increases the amount of hunger consumed to perform certain actions
    • Wearing heavy armor prohibits some Actions such as over-head-climbing, or even climbing anything but ladders
    • Wearing heavy armor increases the time needed to stand back up from crawling and decreases the crawling speed
  • Advanced Survival Interactions
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    This is in some parts an extension to Hiracho's awesome FFA:
    • Add a heat-bar for the player:
      • Being in a desert or near lava increases heat
      • Being in cold climates or on top high mountains decreases heat
      • every action that consumes hunger also increases heat
      • over time, the player will slowly heat or cool back to equilibrium
      • Wearing wool/leather/padded armor slows heat loss or gain from external sources
      • Wearing Iron/steel/chain armor increases heat loss or gain from external sources
      • all Armor decreases the effectiveness of sweating (see below) differently
      • most Armor can get wet. Wet armor applies its own outside sweating effect
      • every fire source provides some heat, though most will not tend to overheat you
      • Some systems should be in place to disable heating/freezing in "decently inhabited spaces" even if they are located within one of the extreme ones (Deserts, tundras, high mountains)
      • The Nether will raise the default temperature slightly, but when not working out hard one will not need unreasonably more water than in the overworld
      Add a water-bat to the player (as complement to the hunger bar)
      • the water bar slowly drains over time (just as hunger), but with less durability overall (one needs longer to starve to death than to dehydrate)
      • When the player is overheating, the bar drains faster in order to apply cooling to the player by sweating
      • A new leather based water container is added to allow the player to carry around water for drinking before glass and bottles become available
      Upgrading inventory
      • initially, the player has only his hotbar and one row of inventory.
      • He can later craft different backpacks that upgrade the inventory space he has available
      • this will possibly allow the player to exceed the current inventory limit late in the game
      • Possibly at the end of the tech-tree this could also allow the player to directly access his ender-chest-inventory through the player-menu, and the chared-ender-chest-inventories too; so long as he is within the radius of a/the corresponding beacon.
      Additional changes
      • some/most foods also get a water value they grant to the player
      • overheating or freezing has negative effects on the player like slowing him down, disabling jumping and draining health.
      • this should combine nicely with Sock's Crops Addon once that is finished and new stuff spawns aturally via dawnraider Better Terrain Addon.
      • new enchantments for armor will prevent the player from suffering the negative effects of their surroundings
    This is not meant to become a nuisance to the player. Rather, it should make exploration more interesting by requiring more planning, and give late game armor some more consideration as it comes with potentially more drawbacks.
    If however this turns out to be more of a paint than fun; well then it's not worth keeping.
  • Ironworks
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    BTW changed a great deal about how ores and smelting work. Also, one of the philosophies of BTW was to try and remove GUIs as much as possible. Following that Ironworks has the following ideas:
    • introducing Copper and Tin as an intermediate step towards Iron. Iron generation is changed to occur just slightly slower. Copper and Tin generate widely in first strata, but are restricted each to some biomes.
    • Bronze tools will take the role that iron tools currently have, but with less durability and slightly slower speed/less damage. Iron will offer more durability than bronze, and less loss when recycling. Not everything will be possible with bronze (e.g. no bronze saw)
    • Bronze is obtained by smelting 3 copper-powder together with 1 tin-powder
    • Ore nuggets are hot when they finished smelting. Having hot ore in inventory damages the player. Having hot ore on the hotbar does not damage the player if they wear any hand-armor (depending on the type of armor, it might take some damage). Hot nuggets can't be stacked (they work similar to crude torches, and lit crude torches)
    • Over time, hot nuggets cool down. Cool nuggets can be handled as usual. e.g. they can be stacked.
    • Copper tools can't be crafted in inventory or on a crafting table (carved stump)
    • Stones, Sticks and Strings can be crafted into "crude-hammers"
    • Smooth stone needs to be hammered into a "crude-anvil"
    • to craft a copper ingot, one needs to place hot copper nuggets on a crude-anvil and hammer them with a "crude-hammer". This consumes hunger.
    • copper ingots can be hot too, and may be reheated in an oven (same as nuggets)
    • to craft copper tools, one needs to place hot copper ingots on a "crude-anvil" in the desired shape, then hammer with a "crude-hammer". This may produce "copper-axe-head", "copper-pickaxe-head", "copper-shovel-head", "copper-sword-blade", "copper-shear-blades", "copper-hammer-head" and "copper-chisel". Those need then be crafted into the respective tools by adding a stick, a string and tar pitch in inventory.
    • tar pitch is produced by smelting birchbark in an oven. (more complex mechanism might come later)
    • In order to smelt iron powder, one requires an advanced-oven that can reach higher temperatures. The materials needed to build it can only be obtained with bronze-tools. Historically, smelting iron required blowing air into a blast-furnace; I'm still thinking about how to maybe resemble that process.
    • the "Crude-Hammer" can be replaced by the "copper-hammer" and "iron-hammer". Note that hammers massively lose durability when working a material or higher strength than theirs, and lose none when working a material or lover strength.
    • The process of working iron should mimic the process of working Copper.
    Obviously, this is still work in progress...
  • Skylands-Dimension
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    Building on what work dawnraider already did with her Better Terrain Addon, I thought it would be possible to add a 4th dimension of floating sky islands. Getting there requires some kind of portal (as always). Islands up there have a base made of "cloud-stone" and we can think of all kind of new things that could be found up there. I would also like it if one can fall back down to the overworld; so if someone falls off one of the skylands islands and hits the bottom of the skyland-dimension he's teleported back to the overworld at the same coordinates but to the maximum y-level, then falling down from there. I would also like it if this would introduce something comparable to the vanillaMC elytra or even some kind of hot-gas-balloon/zeppelin to cross the distances between the sky-islands. This would enable those islands to form small archipelagos that are apart from each other by quite some blocks.
    Anyway, this is merely a thought and far from even a concept ;)
  • Evolved villagers(not dumb villagers)
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    This is also merely a thought. But I would like it if villagers actually had some kind of daily routine they go through. Maybe this could even become a more integrated system where one does not just lock them away and use them as trade machines, but they could want beds to sleep in, food and water to survive, but in exchange do helpful things around the base they are in. For example, Farmers could remove weeds from crops that are growing, harvest mature crops and drop them into a specified box and take seeds from another specified box to plant them. Similarly, the other professions could also be able to interact with some blocks and do useful stuff.
    Linking to this, I would absolutely love if inhabited villages got an overhaul reflecting the new capabilities of villagers. And perhaps they could initially be hostile towards the player (maybe having explicit town guards and the likes), so one needs to first befriend them, but then one also gets access to the facilities they have build. It would also be awesome if villagers expanded their villages with time passing...
    But anyway, this is also a long way away.

Dear reader, I thank you for taking the time to read through the mess that are my ideas.
If you have feedback of any kind, please let me know.
If you feel altruistic and want to help me set up my modding environment this is very welcome <3 just PM me, and we can work out a date ;)

As one last thing I have a technical question:
I've looked into the code over at github a bit. Am I correct that changing anything about how the player character itself works must change the player-class and thus different mods that change that class will inherently be incompatible with each other? (unless of course the autors work together...). As seen with Hirarcho's two mods FFA and Dynamic Lighting.

EDIT: put in spoilers for readability, and corrected a mistake.
Last edited by Epsilon on Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dawnraider
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Re: Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by dawnraider »

I'll be honest this is such a massive wall of text that I really don't have the wherewithal to read the whole thing. Massive "idea threads" are really not a good idea and would be much better off separated into their own posts where there is actually some sense of focus. Also, while FC is gone and we are a lot more open here now, I do think it would be wise to avoid this becoming the old suggestion subforum. My main response to a lot of the stuff posted here is "what would that actually add?"

After skimming over stuff, most of the systems you present are incredibly complicated, when a) such complicated systems would be very non-trivial to make and b) could probably instead be replaced by much simpler setups accomplishing the same goals without completely overloading the player. And honestly it's basically entirely outside the scope of BTW as well, though of course addon authors can do whatever they choose.

We'll eventually make a proper modloader that allows for things like method proxies which would make it easier to edit core things like the player, but yeah for now that is a very tough class to edit.

Also PS regarding your part about skylands and referencing BTA, I am female :)
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Epsilon
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Re: Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by Epsilon »

Oh damm, that slipped past me when typing, sorry. Already corrected.

I understand what you say, and will change the wording to better reflect that this is what I want to develop as my addon for CE.

As of the specific ideas. Clearly it's not worth fighting over "who has the right interpretation".
Most of the things are ideas I believe I would enjoy in the game, and I'm aware these sentiments might not be shared ;)
I'm also aware that almost everything that I described it everything but easy, as it requires more than adding items, blocks and recipes. It would maybe be a good idea to start my modding career with a simplified version of Ironworks...

What is the best channel to ask for help with setting up modding over on the discord? And should I delete this thread in order to not start bad trends?
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dawnraider
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Re: Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by dawnraider »

Nah it's fine to leave up :) Just trying to help increase the signal to noise ratio by discouraging threads which are too general.

Best channel on discord to get help in would be #content-creation, which handles basically any auxiliary stuff surrounding BTW like addons, texturepacks, or the wiki.
Come join us on discord! https://discord.gg/fhMK5kx
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EpicAaron
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Re: Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by EpicAaron »

I don't think there is really much noise at all these days. With the spiky overlord gone, I don't see why fans of the mod can't use the ideas forum as they wish. BTW is a really captivating project for a lot of people, and it has inspired myself, you Dawn, and many others to take our own ideas for the perfect Minecraft experience and try to make them real. The original suggestions forum was a burden for FC because he didn't want to have other people's shitty ideas clogging up his own design process. Now that BTW can be everyone's project, I think the ideas forum should act as a place people can be comfortable discussing (or just shouting into the void) their ideas, practical or fantastic.

The "scope" of BTW has changed pretty readily across the development of the mod itself, so trying to limit discussion to some vague nostalgic idea about what BTW should look and feel like seems like an impossible thing to ask. +

Not that I disagree that many of Epsilon's ideas sound really hard to implement for seasoned coders let alone BTW hobbyists, but I think trying to stem creative discussion in an already pretty dead forum is a recipe for people being too nervous to participate at all.

On the subject at hand: being able to walk through windmills would actually be really nice from a straight convenience standpoint.

I've thought about heat and freezing myself, it could be very cool to have to huddle by a fire during snowstorms and knit wool for warmth (knitting seems kind of silly otherwise). Having a hearth going in your hole to keep the space warm would be exactly the kind of thing I hope a climate mechanic would do. Freezing penalty could be slowness and maybe no health regen.

Thirst bar sounds a bit gratuitous, but my conception of "thirst" in BTW would pair with the heat system. The desert sun could overheat the player, requiring the player to carry water on them to keep cool. Run out of water and you are cooked. I have all kinds of ideas for temperature mechanics (and even some vague notions about how to implement them practically for a novice programmer), but for now I am working on my own strict set of features for my earlygame mod.
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dawnraider
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Re: Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by dawnraider »

EpicAaron wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:19 pm I don't think there is really much noise at all these days. With the spiky overlord gone, I don't see why fans of the mod can't use the ideas forum as they wish. BTW is a really captivating project for a lot of people, and it has inspired myself, you Dawn, and many others to take our own ideas for the perfect Minecraft experience and try to make them real. The original suggestions forum was a burden for FC because he didn't want to have other people's shitty ideas clogging up his own design process. Now that BTW can be everyone's project, I think the ideas forum should act as a place people can be comfortable discussing (or just shouting into the void) their ideas, practical or fantastic.
By referencing signal to noise, I meant it towards discussing ideas themselves and that having a bunch of them in a single thread hurts that, not saying that people shouldn't share ideas. Feel free to share ideas :) My main point was that threads should be focused.

I probably was a bit negative, just coming in and seeing a kitchen sink wall of text made me immediately think "oh yikes, what is this" and I responded with that mindset.
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Epsilon
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Re: Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by Epsilon »

dawnraider wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:45 pm I probably was a bit negative, just coming in and seeing a kitchen sink wall of text made me immediately think "oh yikes, what is this" and I responded with that mindset.
No worries there from my side. I know you're a busy Person, so I really didn't expect to get an answer that quickly ;) though I secretly hoped to.

That the tread is a bit unfocused is kinda intended, as I wanted to get out many things but felt it would be too much clutter if I started 4+ threads right away (for the more thought out ideas). I belive either way it's suboptimal...
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EpicAaron
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Re: Epsilons Crazy Ideas Collection

Post by EpicAaron »

I know art forums usually have a subforum where individuals can have their own "blog" of work, and other users can pop in and discuss if anything interests them. I interpreted this thread in a similar manner.

A temperature system is something that has been discussed on the discord with varying approaches and levels of complexity offered, so a thread of its own would be good.

I think the hardest part imo is figuring out how to recognize a "heated room," or "decently inhabited places" as Epsilon writes.
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