Flower's Dev Diary (Week of October 23rd)

[Battlecat]

I feel very sorry for Risugami, he was treated very poorly by a segment of the minecraft community.

With regards to MCPatcher, it's one of the few mods that "might" still work since it doesn't actually require Modloader to operate although it is fully compatible with it. I do stress the phrase "might" though since I have no idea what writing a modloader free version of BTW would entail.

The warning is appreciated, and I wish you the best of luck with the 1.4 update.

[Sarudak]

likely temporary until Mojang gets at least the first version of their API out the door.

likely temporary

temporary

..
Duh duh duh!

Not sure how much confidence I have in that bit given their track record... Lol

[FlowerChild]

With regards to MCPatcher, it's one of the few mods that "might" still work since it doesn't actually require Modloader to operate although it is fully compatible with it. I do stress the phrase "might" though since I have no idea what writing a modloader free version of BTW would entail.

Yup, I agree. However, I do want people to be prepared for the worst case scenario here where absolutely nothing works.

As for what it entails, it's actually not that bad on my end. I'm already effectively doing this for the server version of the mod, since there's no SMP version of ML at present.

Most of the work will just involve creating wrapper functions for anything ML associated so that I can quickly swap back to ML if/when a 1.4 version becomes available, or to swap back to my stuff if anything similar to this happens again in the future.

If I do it right, add-ons should just be able to call my functions in the future, and then whether any particular version of BTW relies on ML or not should become transparent to them.

..
Duh duh duh!

Not sure how much confidence I have in that bit given their track record... Lol

Hehe..tell me about it :)

I think you're right that my repeated use of the word "temporary" betrays my own lack of confidence as to when this might actually happen.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again that Mojang's "all or nothing" approach to the mod API really pisses me off. As far as I know, the ML style part of it is already written, but for some reason, they aren't releasing it.

Why is that? That functionality would be beneficial to pretty much every modder out there. As far as I can tell it goes back to them once again being afraid of their own fan-base. They've built up so much expectation for the mod-API being able to do everything including blow you while you play, that I think they're afraid that if they take an incremental approach and release portions of it as they are ready, people will flip out and they don't want to deal with that.

So, once again, if I'm right about this, it's an example of Mojang not doing the right thing out of fear of public reaction. In other words, that fear is not just (badly) affecting the design side of things, now it's affecting their decisions with regards to code architecture, and yes, that pisses me off :)

[finite8]

People might be pretty harsh over at MC Forums, but i don't think that's the case here (that and if they are, the Banhammer sorts that out pretty quick).

I trust in our Tentacled overlord. Do what you think is best mate. The only other mod i would really love to see in use is the Alpha Shader mod, but that has never been compatible so really, no Modloader would actually be nice as it is one less thing to install.

[Detritus]

That's kind of sad. I was going to stay with 1.3 anyway, at least until BTW updates, but now I and my server will probably stay longer.

[MoRmEnGiL]

Can't speak for others, but personally I'd say don't worry about it man,as long as btw works,everything else is not that important.

[BigShinyToys]

Forge has modloader built into it and bukkit is porting to forge. Bukkit was at some point working with mojang. All roads look like they are pointing to forge.

my gut feeling is this is that mojang is going to take forge and make it into there "API" less work and mods are already compatible with it.

Remembering that forge is open source you could borrow there mod loading code unlit mod loader updates. There is a modloader MP btw.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/182 ... y-awesome/

[magikeh]

my gut feeling is this is that mojang is going to take forge and make it into there "API" less work and mods are already compatible with it.

Well hey they took the pistons mod and integrated it into VMC so i see no reason why they would not take forge and do the same.

Note: They didn't just plop the mod's code into the actual source code. Jeb went and re-wrote the code for the pistons making it so that the mods idea was just added to the game, same thing would happen if they were to "integrate" forge.

[/speculation]

[PizzaSHARK!]

I say this because ML has remained at "pre-release" status for about 3 months now, and I haven't seen hide nor hair of news from Risugami during that period. I put no fault on Risugami for this whatsoever BTW. If I were in his shoes, I would be extremely dispirited by the whole FML thing, and I doubt I'd want to work on it anymore either. This is why I've just kept soldiering on with ML during that period, writing my own SMP hooks to parallel its behavior and such during that time. I'm actually very sympathetic towards his current situation.

I just always assumed FML was made with Risugami's permission or, maybe a better word, his at least tacit agreement. Are you saying that the Forge people basically made their own ModLoader and replaced Risugami's entirely? I guess that's their prerogative, but damn that does sound kind of shady if that's what they did. Guess I understand why you got out of that outfit when you did.

This likely means that the first 1.4 release of BTW will be truly incompatible with everything, and I do mean everything, up to and including add-on mods specifically written for it, and potentially even utilities like MCPatcher (not sure about that one, but it's a distinct possibility).

Yes, this sucks, which is why I'm talking about this ahead of time so that you guys are prepared for it if/when it does occur.

Appreciated, though it's part and parcel of the BTW experience to accept that sometimes you have to give some things up to get what you want. I learned to live without Optifine, and I can... probably... learn to live without MCPatcher if it comes to it, though for sure I'll miss having texture packs.


More general question: Do the changes to how you're handling aesthetic blocks make a significant difference in how textures will function on them?

[Minecraftgeek70]

... not much is really given away there at all...

Well, honestly, there aren't any clues in there :)

aha ! the classic double bluff!!

I subjected that image to rigorous post processing, extracted the individual pixels and rearranged them according to an ancient kabbalistic numerology algorithm, remapping their colours according to the planets celestial orbits..

Using a technique similar to that identified in Contact (that film wot has Jodie Foster innit) I discovered the secret image.

It's Elvis riding a pig while in the background Darth Vader with the face of Justin Bieber battles with A SFS Battle Axe against Jesus who seems to look a lot like Father Christmas in a tutu.

To the right an army of Enderman seem to be doing a synchronized Gangnam Style dance while the stars form a face of a giant space wolf smiling beatifically over the congregation.

As to what it all means? I guess I've been eating the wrong mushrooms again XD

But seriously.. FC.. this sounds fantastic. And however long it takes am sure it'll be more than worth the wait.

[sky_demon]

This 1.4 halloween update became really terrifying halloween update.. That just.. Damn..


...Speechless...

[Mr_Hosed]

A real shame about ML. I do hope the ad-revenue is enough to atleast justify continued porting to each version, but really, this basic plug-in functionality should have been added into the Minecraft codebase long before the so called "retail" release. Such a shame.

Also, having developed mods and total conversions in the past, I have to wonder if what really needs to be solved isn't this idea of a universal API from Mojang, but rather mod/TC designs that are more complete and a release package that doesn't require tools like MCP and ML to be developed by third parties.

Counter Strike was being developed when I was working on a TC for Tribes back in the day and I recall that all the major HL mods really had a strict vision to what they were trying to do. Other then BTW, and somewhat with Thaumcraft, everything else I've played has felt like half-developed ideas.

[FlowerChild]

Counter Strike was being developed when I was working on a TC for Tribes back in the day and I recall that all the major HL mods really had a strict vision to what they were trying to do. Other then BTW, and somewhat with Thaumcraft, everything else I've played has felt like half-developed ideas.

Respect man. Tribes was one of my favorite games of all time :)

The only other mod I ever worked on was actually a HL one around that same era, and yes, I agree with you on the concise vision part. I mentioned it back in my first interview, but the MC modding scene has always struck me as a bit of an oddity given the focus on having a shit-load of mods installed all at once. I'm much more used to the days when you picked a single mod to play, and that was it. If you wanted to play others, you did so on what was basically a separate install, and there was zero expectation they'd all work together.

I think this focus on compatibility has also lead to a loss of focus on modders having a clear consistent vision with their mod and attempting to provide any kind of coherent experience. It's much more of a "plug in" mentality where you just provide a couple of small features, and honestly, developing independent plug-ins like that doesn't interest me in the least.

[Six]

I think this focus on compatibility has also lead to a loss of focus on modders having a clear consistent vision with their mod and attempting to provide any kind of coherent experience. It's much more of a "plug in" mentality where you just provide a couple of small features, and honestly, developing independent plug-ins like that doesn't interest me in the least.

I think a lot of younger gamers are of the mind that just adding more things into a game makes it better. I know I used to be that way as a kid, and I think it takes an experience of something like adding every topping to a sundae to understand that more isn't always better.

[Ferrus.Manus]

I mentioned it back in my first interview, but the MC modding scene has always struck me as a bit of an oddity given the focus on having a shit-load of mods installed all at once.

I don't know, this was how things worked in various roleplaying games (Baldur's Gate and other infinite engine mods, Elder Scrolls, etc.) as far as I remember.

[Rianaru]

I mentioned it back in my first interview, but the MC modding scene has always struck me as a bit of an oddity given the focus on having a shit-load of mods installed all at once.

I don't know, this was how things worked in various roleplaying games (Baldur's Gate and other infinite engine mods, Elder Scrolls, etc.) as far as I remember.

But games like Baldur's Gate and the like are based upon pre-created content, more of which is added by expansions, DLCs, and mods. Things like Minecraft(sandbox or infinitely replayable) base their experience on a complete game experience rather than just more content. I see your argument, but I don't really think it's fair to compare the two genres.

On-Topic:
Could never have guessed what the new facility was for. FC truly has mastered the art of teasing :)

[PizzaSHARK!]

I mentioned it back in my first interview, but the MC modding scene has always struck me as a bit of an oddity given the focus on having a shit-load of mods installed all at once.

I don't know, this was how things worked in various roleplaying games (Baldur's Gate and other infinite engine mods, Elder Scrolls, etc.) as far as I remember.

That was only due to the development of WeiDU, and you still have the same issue of using non-WeiDU mods with WeiDU mods there. I guess the only difference is that since modding for IE games is a considerably smaller, more dedicated scene, you don't often run into people refusing to use WeiDU for their mods, and you don't have the WeiDU people running around trying make sword-point conversions of everyone.

Related to the "grab a big mixed bag of mods for a good time!" concept, I think Morrowind was my first real experience with that kind of modding. Like FC and Mr_Hosed said, Half-Life and many other games with modding scenes didn't have much in the way of allowing multiple concurrent mods, you had to make separate installs for each mod you wanted to use.

[Aeslynn Winterfell]

I just have to say I have a lot of respect for you FC, especially now when you move to make those difficult decisions like with what is going on with ML. I appreciate the challenge you're facing here and wanted to add in my words of support too. I myself have worked on smaller mods in the past for other games, and recognize the sheer amount of passion and dedication it takes to not only create but also maintain and strengthen BTW in times like this. I truly applaud you, your dedication, and your continuing hard work on this mod for all of us.

TBH these issues with ModLoader are rather frightening, mostly in the sense of realizing just how much people have built on it and in my opinion the failure of Mojang in terms of not being more supportive of the modding community in terms of at least basic API functionality and leaving it up to depending on others to carry the torch for them. : /

For me though Better Than Wolves DEFINES my game play of minecraft. Period. I've already dropped using many mods out there already because BTW is just that good.

Ironically for me personally my biggest worry is MCPatcher no longer being available because I've been working on a 32x texture pack for a long while now. I suppose I could always rework it as a 16x resolution, but it'd be tough. Of course, I could just stick with 1.3 and continue to use MCPatcher as has been noted. And really, the stuff added by BTW so far is far superior, in my opinion, to any of the stuff added by Mojang for the 1.4 update.

I appreciate all you continue to do FC. Thank you.

[FlowerChild]

Just want to give a brief update on the status of the update to 1.4:

You guys may remember during the update to 1.3, I mentioned that MCP had switched from JAD as a decompiler, to Fernflower.

At the time, I didn't want to have to deal with the large amount of refactoring it would have taken me to switch from one to the other, so I just went on using JAD while I dealt with the task at hand.

Since then though, it's been hanging as somewhat of a question mark as to whether I'd be able to continue doing so. I spoke to Searge of the MCP team about it earlier, and it turns out that me doing so in the long term is really not practical, as I can expect things to start exploding on me soon if I go that route.

So...what I've decided to do, is take this time to port my 1.3 code over to Fernflower, instead of dealing with both porting and refactoring my code in one big shot. IMO, this also makes sense given the current situation with ModLoader, where I am not really certain what's going to happen with it over the next few days.

I figure that this refactoring will probably take me a day or two, and once I am done with it, hopefully we will have some news on Modloader and what's happening with it, so that I can make a more informed decision as to how I will move forward to 1.4.

I just wanted to mention all this, as I know that 1.4 is being rumored as an "easy" port, and from what I can tell, it is indeed a relatively easy one. However, also switching decompilers and the refactoring it requires complicates that process significantly, so I wanted to give y'all a heads up that this may take me a few days to get sorted.

I don't think anyone here is particularly freaking out over the new features in 1.4, so hopefully this won't be too big a deal.

[destineternel]

Take your time, we are having too much fun with blasting oil.

[Ferrus.Manus]

Yeah, obviously it's not an issue, take all the time you need. And good luck with getting through boring part of coding to get to the fun part of designing.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, obviously it's not an issue, take all the time you need. And good luck with getting through boring part of coding to get to the fun part of designing.

Hehe...thanks. Yeah, I really hate this part of modding, but I always try to get stuff like this out of the way as quickly as possible instead of lingering around in the background.

I guess I can't really complain that Mojang seems to have switched from an update schedule of once every few weeks to once every few months, as it means I have to do this kind of maintenance work far less often.

[Psion]

Lol, the only 1.4 thing im looking forward to is the beacon block so i can speed up the tedium of digging my mob traps basement a bit faster, but i have plenty of other things i can build in the meantime while i wait, so its no biggie for me. take all the time you need FC :3

Also, blasting oil is so terrifying i'm too afraid to try making some. i'm always taking damage because of how careless i am, so the thought of holding something like that for even a short while in my base that's mostly outdoors.... yeah. XD

[FlowerChild]

Also, blasting oil is so terrifying i'm too afraid to try making some. i'm always taking damage because of how careless i am, so the thought of holding something like that for even a short while in my base that's mostly outdoors.... yeah. XD

I mentioned this myself last night, but I'm also nervous as hell handling it :)

That was really the effect I was going for though, so I'm quite happy with it ;)

[Battlecat]

Now's certainly the most appropriate time to do this work, especially with the big question mark about Modloader.

Trying not to explode while making explosives will be filling a lot of my time anyhow. :-) The new danger is really fun!