Hardcore Modes - A Big Thank You, in Narrative Form!

[Eriottosan]

I would just like to say a massive thank you to FC for all the recent hardcore changes: Chickens, grinding, info, beds, buoy, bucket (I know it isn't new) and spawn.

Now, I know that spawn is meant more for anarchy play, but I have enabled it on my SSP worlds. I also decided to have a go at starting a new world, large biomes, and work up through, seeing how hard it is with all the "hardcores" enabled (and "hard" mode for difficulty, obviously). All in all, I've put about 9 hours in so far.

I'm doing quite well. I spawned in a plains biome with a river, with nearby pine forest, normal forest and extreme hills biomes (well, as nearby as you can get in large biomes!!). I set up camp within view of spawn. I've got some wolves, animal pens, and a nice hemp building, set up a windmill, and got to steel, the whole time managing to evade death's clutches.

For starters, I will talk about my little chicken pen. It is growing exponentially fast now (seeing as all but one spot on the ground is hoppers, and I have plenty of seeds to feed them), but the fact that I have to feed them for continued growth makes it so much more rewarding.

I also love the fact that I have day and night tasks. I first got into MC about the same time as beds came out, so I never really had the feel of day and night tasks other than starting a world where you can't find sheep for the first day or two. The fact that beds no longer provide night-to-day brings so much more *life* into the game.

Food in the early days is hard. I found myself surviving on rotten flesh and the odd apple until my wheat grew, then you loose about half of what you make for hunger when grinding. Which is how it should be. You come into the world with nothing. You shouldn't get food easily. Once I set up my animal farms I was fine.

I would like to make clear that I was never a fan of the info on F3. But, despite my dislike of it - and I'm sure I'm not the only one - I would occasionally use it for coords. Thank you, FC, for taking that out! Without it, immersion into the game is so much more intense.

Hardcore Buoy is just beautiful. Saying anything more about it would be disrespectful to its simple elegance.

Regarding HCB: I have always loved it. My usage of it actually predates the screw pump. Thank goodness that the screw pump is so high up the tech tree; having to build early buildings at or below natural water level is brilliant.

So back to my progression. I kept out of death's way, and made myself a mattock and a battleaxe, and in my excitement to go explore with my new tools, left my armour behind. Needless to say, in a nearby cave system, a creeper and skeleton decided that it was the perfect time for an ambush.

So Steve, doing what Steve does best, was resurrected by some higher, malevolent force. But not right next to his camp like he is use to (well, other Steves. This Steve had never encountered death before). Instead, he awoke miles away in extreme hills. He had to start from scratch again. Luckily, there were animals nearby for food, and a few trees, but other than that, there was nothing of any value evident nearby. So he set up a temporary shop and began digging. And digging. And digging. Eventually, he found some coal. Then some iron. Then some redstone. So he made two compasses, a bunch of torches (to light up the nearby area), a chest (into which one compass went), and some (not a full set) of armour, and a sword. Then he headed off following the remaining compass. He has just made it back to his windmill.

This brings such a refreshing dimension to the game. I love BTW, and all of the hardcore features (so much so that I kept remembering what were "hardcore" features as I wrote this - they really do feel more like vanilla than vanilla!), but hardcore spawn has to be my favourite.

A big thank you, FC, for all your hardwork. Really well done, thank you so much (:.

[FlowerChild]

Thanks for this man! I'm very interested in hearing the long-term impact of Hardcore Spawn on SSP play, as that one is still a big question mark for me in determining whether it should be the default for the mod or not.

I hummed and hawed over that one for a long time during its development, and in the end decided to play it safe and default it to off, especially given all the hardcore change I've already made in the recent past. I wanted to give those a bit more time to settle before throwing people for yet another loop ;)

Default options are important for a couple of reasons. First, because let's face it, most people will never bother changing options to begin with, and thus the default will become the way the majority wind up playing BTW. Secondly, I personally always play on default so that I am personally always balancing for that mode of play. Thus, it will certainly become the most fully developed way to play the game as it is the play style in which I will most like identify and address issues.

For me, the jury is still out on whether it is universally "better" for SSP play than returning to original spawn. I like the idea in theory, but in practice I've yet to decide as to whether it will be too punishing or not.

So thanks for the story, as that's very useful info for me in making that kind of decision.

And to others reading this: that's in no way a request for opinions on the above decision. I'm interested in experiences...not theories.

[Eriottosan]

You're more than welcome for the feedback, FC. I have always loved BTW, but these hardcore changes really have made the entire game feel much more ... streamlined? complete? polished? Whatever it is, they all feel (to me) the way they should be, rather than being changes that a mod has made. That being said, the same is true for the entire BTW tech tree, but that isn't the point here.

In my case, I am quite experienced in playing MC, and my recent goal the past few months has been learning how best to avoid dying in silly ways (something I used to do a heck of a lot). As a result, I only died once I started getting cocky. I have read your summary of how hardcore spawn works on the spoilers thread, but in practice this is really the only proper experience I have of it. Equally, I knew that within view of where my compass would take me was a lot of stuff worth getting back to. The viewpoints of less experienced players may well be very different. But as far as I am concerned, I am definitely keeping hardcore spawn turned on.

[FlowerChild]

Well, what I'm personally planning on doing is a totally fresh playthrough once I feel I am "done" with these hardcore changes (at least for the time being), and the game is back in a state where it can be properly called a game instead of just a toy.

I'll likely enable hardcore spawn for that play through and really give it a workout. At present, the odds of me dying during such a test are just about zero, so there really wouldn't be much point.

I'm also trying to play some more anarchy these days, which will definitely help if someone eventually gets around to killing me ;)

Anyways, I'll likely make a final decision on whether to make it the default once I do my SSP play through. It might be a little while though, as the ideas for additional changes just keep on stacking up :)

[Eriottosan]

the game is back in a state where it can be properly called a game instead of just a toy.

This. These are the words I was looking for at the start of my last post.

Ah, I'm really looking forward to these still-in-the-pipework hardcore changes. You really have done a fantastic job with them so far. It's so great for me as a player that vMC is starting to feel as complete as the BTW side of things now that you are fixing it.

Heh, yeah, I wouldn't expect you to have much experience of Hardcore Spawn on your playthrough, unless you were throwing yourself off cliffs in the name of progress!

I really need to play more anarchy ... I was doing well on SR's before it shut down, and SMP in general isn't something I really have experience in. At least there you *may* get a feel for Hardcore Spawn, though I imagine "if someone eventually gets around to killing" you is a big if !!

the ideas for additional changes just keep on stacking up :)

That is certainly good news to my ears! Looking forward to it!

[FlowerChild]

Ah, I'm really looking forward to these still-in-the-pipework hardcore changes. You really have done a fantastic job with them so far. It's so great for me as a player that vMC is starting to feel as complete as the BTW side of things now that you are fixing it.

Thanks man. Yeah, as I mentioned in the past, when I first started creating BTW I viewed the primary problem with MC to be the lack of tech-related content, so that's what I focused on. I think this actually lead to many people mistakenly assuming it was a "tech mod", when really it was intended more as a "make MC more fun" mod :)

Anyways, as I've also been mentioning more and more lately, now that has shifted to where I consider the lack of challenge to be MC's primary problem, especially since Mojang seem to be working so hard at eroding away what little is left, so I am rather naturally moving my focus to address that instead. I know that's throwing some people for a loop, especially those that considered it to be a "tech mod", and especially those that are habituated to playing in creative or on peaceful (i.e. "pussies") so it's always good to hear from the folks that do appreciate these changes and recognize the positive difference they make to the overall gameplay experience.

I'm sure new tech content will always be part of me developing BTW, maybe even more so given that new tech will likely become necessary to deal with new challenges. However, the scope of the mod is getting much much broader in terms of what I'm now attempting to address.

[OldMarriedDude]

... especially those that are habituated to playing in creative or on peaceful (i.e. "pussies") so it's always good to hear from the folks that do appreciate these changes and recognize the positive difference they make to the overall gameplay experience.

as a reformed "pussy" ive got to say the changes you have made make mc worth playing. As far as the debate of turning on hardcore spawn as default I would say turn it on and let people learn to deal with it. I think it has for more benefits than detriments. Its exciting knowing that when I die I may not find my base again or that i will it will just take some time. The dying ( and I Do It alot since I dont play with sound) creates a bunch of "settlements" with houses that have beds and tables in them and are waiting to be populated with villagers. Should I stumble across one of my earlier spawns I plan on connecting it to my current spawn by rail, and kidnapping villagers to populate each of my settlements. This will eventually give my world a feeling of being "inhabited"

[8Keep]

Flowerchild, I would also like to say "Thank you!" for the hardcore changes. I have been playing a LOT of singleplayer recently, and my base is getting to look pretty sweet with hardcore buckets. Water canals in the air going off to various places just looks plain awesome. Since hardcore spawn came out, I just couldn't stop playing. I completed moving most my materials to my original spawn, to have something if I die (I didn't completely understand hardcore spawning at the time). My first death with it on, I almost had a heart attack. I went to the forums, and luckily found that thread you explained hardcore spawning in. Once I understood, it was almost as if I was starting a fresh world, I love that feeling of beginning minecraft, especially better than wolves. Once I got enough materials to make a compass, I journeyed home and returned to my old ways, except with now a feeling of "hardcore" in me. I almost wanted to die again on purpose, just because starting over was so much fun, without having to loose all your progress on the world.

Hardcore spawn adds so much more to better than wolves, after playing with it, I could never go back. EVER.

Thank you SO MUCH for your hard work on this mod!

[kazerima]

After reading everything in here, it may be worth activating this on my current world that I've been working on. Don't even have my windmill yet since I've been busy lately, so this could fit in without any major alterations destroying my world.

[Panda]

Im still waiting for hardcore food allergies that will make you allergic to all the stupid new food they add *cough cough* pumpkin pie

[walker_boh_65]

Im still waiting for hardcore food allergies that will make you allergic to all the stupid new food they add *cough cough* pumpkin pie

Why not potatoes? or carrots? Pumpkin Pie can still be saved. :)

[HappyDyas]

How do I even start? Words would be a great choice. But quite honestly, there isnt any I can combine to express my joy. Maybe through interpretive dance?

I have finally decided to grow a pair and play straight legit BTW. I cannot thank you enough for making MC a proper game (as stated above).

Though the journey to the end of that tunnel has been made far more complex with the addition from BTW, the end light has been made infinintley more glorious and rewarding to thy self.

For that kind sir, I thank you.

[brab]

Reading this made me decide to also turn on hardcore spawn in my SSP world. I won't restart a world as this one was started after HCB.

I have a quick question about this

For starters, I will talk about my little chicken pen. It is growing exponentially fast now (seeing as all but one spot on the ground is hoppers, and I have plenty of seeds to feed them), but the fact that I have to feed them for continued growth makes it so much more rewarding.

According to the wiki, seeds are filtered into hoppers for any filter. How do you feed your chickens? By putting the seeds in the only hopper-less spot?

[Eriottosan]

FC: I for one am certainly glad that you are happy to tackle any part of MC. Your vision for the game always delights!

To all: I am glad that people are being inspired to try Hardcore Spawn by this thread. For me, at least, it it is a very enjoyable experience.

How do you feed your chickens? By putting the seeds in the only hopper-less spot?

Yup. By doing exactly that. The more ground you have covered by hoppers, the more eggs will be collected rather than being laid on the ground and despawning while you are off doing other things. But you still need that one spot for the seeds for that reason (:.

[Minecraftgeek70]

To all: I am glad that people are being inspired to try Hardcore Spawn by this thread. For me, at least, it it is a very enjoyable experience.

While my server is NOT an anarchy one.. I am tempted to enable this feature for "Sh*ts and giggles"

I was a chicken previously.. anything hardcore that could be disabled was disabled. but I've been doing myself and the game a great disservice. My players were "less than impressed" with the change to beds initially.. but they seem to be won over now. and yesterday I enabled ALL the hardcore modes again (then then turned difficulty from normal to hard.. cos I'm a sadist like that) and to be honest.. they're having much more fun. It makes the difference as one poster mentioned above between A building block toy like Lego or Minecraft and a Game like Better than Wolves. And my players see that, curse my name under their breath but have more fun in the process.

great stuff..FC keep it up.

[Six]

Yeah, I think this could go well on any server, so long as you explain to the people that the best idea after death is to make a small shack, make a compass and then mark from the shack the direction back towards 'spawn'. Should give the server a whole different feel after a while, with all the little outposts and make the whole place feel a little more 'lived in'.

[Minecraftgeek70]

a little "rant" I posted on another forum I'm a member of.

the rather silly Topic was How would you feel if you got the rights to minecraft

I'd donate it to Flowerchild (developer of the Better than Wolves plug in) so he could make Minecraft less like a Lego Toy and more like an Actual Game again.

Games should be "taxing" and shouldn't allow you to skip difficult bits (like... you know.. skipping night by sleeping?!) You shouldn't be able to carry an oceans worth of water in two buckets! A bucket of Lava.. well shouldn't be possible! Dyeing a sheep blue should not change it's genetic properties XD .. Minecraft as it stands is a fun TOY. sorry to say it but it is.

so yes, If I got the rights to Minecraft? I'd sack the existing staff. Pick some proper GAME developers who know how to code a challenge. Take out all the silly stuff that doesn't fix bugs or really add anything to the game, Fix all the bugs and probably annoy the pants off 98% of Minecraft Customers.

Just as well this is just fantasy and I'm still my normal cantankerous curmudgeonly self eh? XD

Here's hoping I get a few converts eh? XD

[August West]

I agree with the above.

These changes have really tied the game together. I play on a small server with my little brother. We started off working together, and eventually separated. With the new changes disabling night --> day, we actually have to channel our night-time efforts into something worthwhile. This translated into building a massive rail system between our new bases. It was a ton of work. We both burned through multiple mattocks as well as not-so-greatly enchanted diamond picks. At first we were definitely annoyed. But after seeing the work come together and realizing that if we weren't inside our little bases looking out at the creepers, it never would have come to fruition. Plus, aside from very minor systems, we had not previously made a rail system.

Another HUGE addition to the game is the removal of name tags. It seems like such a small change, but man alive! It makes a huge difference in our little PvP skirmishes.

I could ramble on, and on, and on, and on, and then on a little bit more... but I will save everybody from reading the drawn out thank you.

I just wanted to say that I really do appreciate the changes. Thanks, man! And quite frankly, fuck the naysayers. This is one of a very select few mods that are designed to add difficulty to the game. It's a novel concept... and you hit the nail square on the head.

Cheers!

[agentwiggles]

I hope this is enough of a contribution to the thread to not be considered necro. I actually typed this in response to a different thread and by the time I was done it was so long and off topic for that thread it just seemed better to put it here:

I recently started a new map, and my experiences in that world have really made me a hardcore modes convert. I had been a little unsure about the beds and F3 thing, but I so much fun in the first few days of playing just trying to get established. I had found a spot I liked and established a very small outpost there but wasn't quite sure how to get there from spawn. I managed to find it 3 or 4 times, but the other 10 or so deaths before I got a real base going were just me getting killed at night or from falling too far, as I was usually starving. Finally, deciding that I could find the original base later, I made camp in a cave and started mining at night. Eventually, I got enough iron to make some armor and good tools, and when I found redstone, I made a compass and found my way back to spawn, marking out a path with some torches so I didn't have to worry about dying as much.

Those first few days, of being lost in an unfamiliar world, with danger coming at me from all sides, with night being something to hide from, struggling to hunt down some animals and refueling my hunger bar with whatever I could find, just trying to get enough of a foothold to eke out an existence for longer than a day, were legitimately some of the most fun I've had playing Minecraft since alpha. I was afraid to die, I had to run from mobs sometimes instead of killing them easily. All this made finally establishing some sources of food and getting some decent armor much more satisfying, and I felt like I was progressing, instead of the regular feeling of vMC's tech tree consisting of only one branch. It's an entire phase of gameplay that could be completely bypassed if you managed to kill three sheep and punch a tree within the first five minutes of spawn, and it's a damn shame that Mojang denied that kind of fun to their players with beds.

[Thyrllann]

I updated to 4.30 when it came out, and the Hardcore Explosives mode has already managed to kill me XD. Before this update I'd had all the other Hardcore modes on (incl Hardcore Spawn), but hadn't died for some time - ie before Hardcore Spawn was added, so I had no firsthand experience of it.

So there I was, in my nice, well-lit valley, with my Hardcore Buckets-caused aqueducts going all over the place, having just finished making my first batch of Blasting Oil. Well, I have no idea where that Skeleton came from, (I'm sure I checked everywhere with my Ender Specs...) but there is now a dirty (heh) great hole in my nice, manicured lawn, I'm now paranoid of mobs getting into my valley through unknown means, I'm God-knows-where out in the wilderness, and all I could do...

... was laugh :)

Cheers FC, for making Minecraft fun again. I'm really loving the Hardcore modes, and I can't wait to see what you come up with next!