MC 1.3: Pigmen Spawn near Nether Portals

[morvelaira]

Wouldn't it also be possible to prevent ghast spawn by making sure your portal is enclosed in a too small area?

[Mr. B]

Wouldn't it also be possible to prevent ghast spawn by making sure your portal is enclosed in a too small area?

Yes, and this is exactly how all of my portals are currently safeguarded. However, we don't know the allowed spawn range from the portal since this feature is a work in progress.

[Kazuya Mishima]

If baby zombies are a template for a new threat in vanilla then how long before FC unleashes baby ghasts that can squeeze out of our nether gates and into tiny enclosures.

[FlowerChild]

Obviously, if/when I got that route guys, they'll be a valid method of defense. It's no use getting all in a tizzy about it.

I'm not against a bit of Gold farming in the Overworld.
Because so far the only thing I do in the Nether is to afk to wait for my shit to grow, then come back.
I built pretty much all I needed in the Nether, so I have barely no reason to stay in it, so when I come it's mostly at night, when I'm going to bed, to stay afk around my farms. Or every now and then to collect some Netherrack.
But then none of my thing are working in the Overworld, which sucks. So I barely go there.

Well, your argument doesn't seem to be against this change in particular, as much as it seems to be against the Nether as a whole man. It seems to boil down to "I don't want to go there". Obviously, making the Nether a more interesting part of gameplay in MC has been one of my design goals since the very early days of the mod, so I'm not going to abandon that idea now.

Also, I suspect both your Overworld and Nether are developed to an extent where you have "pretty much all you need" in both :)

[FlowerChild]

Is there a viable way to build a pigman farm in vMC? BTW does a lot to facilitate nether pigmen farms (limit the spawning to only netherrack and netherbrick plus having nether groth to further reduce the possible spawning placed) but wouldn't it in vMC require you to replace an enormous are of the nether with half slabs? If so, then I can understand having a way to make a pigman farm in the overworld (even though I doubt that's the reason for it given Mojang's stance on mob farms)

Sorry for the delay in responding to this. I first read it just before bed last night and wanted to sober up before responding. Now with a couple of cups of coffee in me, I think I'm ready to give it a go :)

I'm not entirely certain how effective vMC overworld pigmen farms will be. I think we're looking at two issues there, one being collecting the obsidian. That would obviously be extremely time consuming using vanilla picks. You can probably save a lot of time by pouring into a mould, much like you can do with a single portal, however this is still going to obviously be an epic undertaking.

BUT, I think we definitely can't discount the amount of determination people can exhibit in that regard. I've seen people build huge towers out of obs in SMP before, so I'm pretty sure there will be at least some who do this.

Then there's resource collection, but that largely comes down to punching mobs to death in the current standard vanilla fashion, or just standing in a water-stream afk like used to be the norm (if you don't care about the XP).

But I think this ties into a larger subject with regards to the mod and MC which is why I want to wait before responding:

The way I'm currently seeing things, especially after seeing the news about zombies and such wearing all kinds of armor in the game, is that Mojang's current design goal is to provide complete flexibility in terms of player action. What I mean by this, is that I think they're heading towards making it so that whatever action a player prefers to engage in, they will reach the same end-point.

So, for example, if you prefer farming, you can trade with villagers to get your equipment. If you prefer mining, you can mine for the resources to make it. If you prefer combat, you can kill mobs for it.

So, whichever way you go, eventually you'll wind up with full diamond gear.

Now, this isn't necessarily a bad design direction, but it's not one that I personally agree with. I personally favor diversity in player action, and a player being encouraged to explore all the various aspects of the game to get to the "end". You can see this preference in many of my own design decisions where I'll focus on different aspects at any given time, and based on which I think need more fleshing out. I don't think any one of these individual activities is a worthwhile gameplay experience on its own, but when combined, they make for something truly interesting (basically the MC we've all come to know and love).

Basically, I like the idea of players planting some crops, going to do some mining while they wait for them to grow, fighting off some mobs while mining, etc. A lot of times I think MC is most interesting when the player is engaged in multi-tasking and has many different simultaneous objectives. This is probably one of the reasons I've always objected to bone-meal in MC, as to me, farming has always added an interesting element of multi-tasking into the game given it's a long-term background activity, whereas with bone-meal, it really becomes a one-off start to finish in a few minutes kinda thing.

So yeah, back to the original point: I really don't know if these farms will be effective in vMC, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they will be. I'm pretty certain people will find effective ways of doing this, and we'll see videos about them on Youtube soon enough. BUT, I also think that's becoming less and less relevant to me, as I'm becoming more certain that my design direction, and Mojang's, are going in very different directions with very different goals.

I don't think anyone here would argue that BTW should start adopting the homogenous design ideology that seems to be becoming part of vMC. I think users of this mod have a great deal of appreciation for diversity of activities, specialized devices for particular jobs, and that kind of thing. In this particular case, I think that's basically why I'm wanting to make this change: it's taking a big step towards homogenizing the Nether and the Overworld by making one of the primary reasons for constructing a base in the Nether available elsewhere.

And one last point: while I don't think Mojang plans for mob-traps or automation, I *do* think the players that make these kinds of requests do, and try to sneak them in using other justifications. Like, in this case, I doubt Mojang was thinking about pig-man farms, but if someone asked them for this feature, they probably were.

Another example is with ice. I doubt Mojang even considered its use in item transport when making it accessible with silk touch. They were probably just thinking in terms of pretty ice castles and such. However, you can be fairly certain the bulk of people asking for this very much wanted it for item transport.

So what you wind up with are features being added based on player requests for features to help in automation, while Mojang is not balancing the features for the intended use. That's kinda alarming when you think about it, and I hope people can understand that I think *someone* needs to be looking at those aspects, especially when dealing with a mod that largely focuses on these kind of things.

[Urian]

I'm not sure I agree that it leans toward being a bad thing that you'll end up with the same results from various paths. There is no point to it at the moment, for sure, but if Minecraft continues to develop on a broad range then I could see a point in the future where being able to end up at the same end point from following different paths would be a good thing. While diversity in action can be desirable there is also an undeniable pleasure that players can get from doing things their own way. I recently watched a video with Harvey Smith (lead designer of the original Deus Ex) where he attributed a large part of Deus Ex's appeal to people having their own player set restrictions and challenges, meaning that there wasn't one way only to accomplish your goal but rather that you could attempt to reach it (the same end point) via several different routes that you set for yourself (a basic example could be not killing anyone, there are no penalties or rewards for doing it except the feel of accomplishment that you managed to do it).

Now, as I said, there isn't really much need for that at the moment in MC since the path to diamonds is a very short one but if they were to flesh out the various paths and make them more distinct (e.g. I think the trading system in Millenaire is way better than in vMC, having a need to build reputation, help the town grow, etc. If the "trading path" was something more along those lines then it would feel like more of an accomplishment due to it being more of a challenge). As you say, it does not at the moment feel like any individual activity is worthwhile but I'm still an optimist and hoping that there will be more content added along the way that will lengthen the road to diamond or beyond. :)

But yeah, regarding the on topic: I'm guessing we will indeed soon start seeing overworld pigmen farms but it remains to be seen if the effectiveness of them might be worth the effort to most people. :p

[FlowerChild]

Well, you'll note I didn't say it's a bad thing. All I said there, is it's not my preferred design direction of MC, or for the mod. Mojang is going one way, and I'm going another.

[Donzaffi]

Well, you'll note I didn't say it's a bad thing. All I said there, is it's not my preferred design direction of MC, or for the mod. Mojang is going one way, and I'm going another.

This sounds a little bit as you still are playing with the thought of a TC ?
A idea that i still prefering because I think you would make the game still more challenging if you have more freedom there, and because sometimes I think you a alittle bit pissed of about changes in vMC that sometimes destroy your efforts

[FlowerChild]

This sounds a little bit as you still are playing with the thought of a TC ?

A little bit, but I'm playing it very slow and careful in that regard. I'd prefer to keep the mod as close to vanilla as possible, while making some small changes here and there to help with the overall flow of the tech-tree.

However, I want to continue maintaining compatibility with people's worlds and am still opposed to breaking builds, so it's very unlikely that the mod would become a true TC.

But yeah, many of the recent design changes have just been too much of a departure from the way things used to work for me to really reconcile it with the overall design of the mod, and yes, that does become increasingly frustrating with time.

[CycloneSP]

Hmm, interesting.

Pardon my derpyness, but what is a 'TC' ?

[XephodHuntmaster]

I hope BTW updates to mc 1.3 soon...

Any idea as to when FC is going to update the mod?


XephodHuntmaster

[Ethazeriel]

Any idea as to when FC is going to update the mod?

Here, have a pastry.

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[Extreme Boyheat]

It'll be done when it's done. :P

[FlowerChild]

Here, have a pastry.

Pastries are only for MCF, where I don't have a banhammer at my disposal.

[Aradanwen II]

Pardon my derpyness, but what is a 'TC' ?

im not completely sure but i think it means Total Conversion.
in a sence that BTW would be a total conversion from vmc.

[Heightren]

I was watching videos and it truns out they have discovered that the number of portals doesn't increase the rate of pigmen spawning

[FlowerChild]

I was watching videos and it truns out they have discovered that the number of portals doesn't increase the rate of pigmen spawning

I don't really believe that, as I've taken a brief look at the code responsible, but if that's the case it makes this a non-issue. I suspect it more likely that they didn't properly light up the area or what have you, and other mob types were capping the spawn limit.

One thing I've realized since I last posted in this thread in that all portal *blocks* (so six per portal) have tile entities associated with them. As a result, I no longer favor spawning ghasts through these things, as it basically means that any large farm involving portals as the spawning mechanism will likely have a significant detrimental impact on performance, similar to what would happen if you built a huge structure out of furnaces or something.

So, if it turns out to be a problem, I think I'm most likely just to disable the spawns entirely, as this just isn't a reasonable farming method.

[CycloneSP]

Awe, sad face. And here I was kinda looking forward to a practical ghast farm. Oh well, I won't try to force the issue. Especially if it concerns performance. (I am currently learning my lesson with creating systems that impact performance. It's kinda like playing with fire... only worse.)

[SterlingRed]

Awe, sad face. And here I was kinda looking forward to a practical ghast farm. Oh well, I won't try to force the issue. Especially if it concerns performance. (I am currently learning my lesson with creating systems that impact performance. It's kinda like playing with fire... only worse.)

I have found that large enclosed spaces in the nether have a tendency to accumulate Ghasts if you remain in the loaded area for an extended period of time. It works best if you have reduced the possible area of spawning pigman, thus increasing the capacity for spawning Ghasts. I haven't attempted to automate kills in such a room, but in a five high room 30x30 while afk for six hours held 13 Ghasts when I returned. Based on the output of my pigman farm, I believe these Ghasts spawned within the first two hours and maxed my mob capacity. Toss in automated killing and a way to stop your pigman farm (all pistons on for example) theoretically could make a decent ghast farm viable. Unfortunately I'm far from being able to try this in my current world.

[wolfe]

I honestly can't see any reason why they would choose zombie pigmen other than to be able to farm the hell out of them... which also contradicts Mojang's odd dislike of mob traps. I dunno... I don't think it was thought through enough over at HQ. I can't stand pigmen to begin with, last thing I want is them showing up on my overworld... at least not without getting to watch some lightning fireworks back at the pig farm.

Actually, mojang has never stated that they dislike mob traps. Notch actually stated the opposite during his time as head developer. So it would actually make sense that they would want to add more possible ways to farm mobs.

They made a mistake by trying to maintain the funsies and stop some of the stupid suggestions.

[FlowerChild]

Actually, mojang has never stated that they dislike mob traps. Notch actually stated the opposite during his time as head developer. So it would actually make sense that they would want to add more possible ways to farm mobs.

Yeah, they did. Notch actually tried to kill mob-traps entirely a short while before 1.0 was released, and the public outcry that caused made him back off and do it in more subtle ways, gradually over time instead.

[wolfe]

Actually, mojang has never stated that they dislike mob traps. Notch actually stated the opposite during his time as head developer. So it would actually make sense that they would want to add more possible ways to farm mobs.

Yeah, they did. Notch actually tried to kill mob-traps entirely a short while before 1.0 was released, and the public outcry that caused made him back off and do it in more subtle ways, gradually over time instead.

Fuck, why don't I remember that? I guess he never got the chance to nerf them himself, as he stopped leading the game development right after 1.0 was released. Although I think if there was any remaining plans for killing mob traps, it would have been done by Jens and Jon, as they have been making mobs more smart and dangerous. Looking at the stuff they're working on for 1.4 makes me worry that they will either make mob farming freaking difficult or freaking rewarding(Zombies in enchanted diamond armor with a sword: curse or gold mine?)

[Last_Jedi_Standing]

I can easily see why Mojang would think of mob farms as an exploit if they didn't intend for players to do that. It's a point of view issue, really. And a zombie in enchanted diamond armor is obviously not a gold mine. It's a diamond mine. The zombie would have to be in gold armor for it to be a gold mine. Hmm... can't find a smiley that conveys this quite right.

EDIT: Wait. No ghast farms because Mojang made portals use too many tile entities? <beats head with board> GAH! <thwack> WHY <thwack> WHY <thwack> NO MORE AWESOME <thwack> CURSES <thwack> THOSE WONDERFUL DREAMS <thwack> DETECTORS AND ARROWS <thwack> and now that I've started this I don't know how to end it so it's funny instead of depressing.

[FlowerChild]

I can easily see why Mojang would think of mob farms as an exploit if they didn't intend for players to do that.

That's what emergent gameplay is all about. Sometimes the most fun aspects of a game aren't anticipated originally by the designers. When that happens, you have two choices: either get rid of them, or change your design to embrace them.

Only one of those two options is correct.

[darahalian]

EDIT: Wait. No ghast farms because Mojang made portals use too many tile entities? <beats head with board> GAH! <thwack> WHY <thwack> WHY <thwack> NO MORE AWESOME <thwack> CURSES <thwack> THOSE WONDERFUL DREAMS <thwack> DETECTORS AND ARROWS <thwack> and now that I've started this I don't know how to end it so it's funny instead of depressing.

You can still make ghast farms with detectors and arrows in the nether; it's just harder to get reliable spawns. But if you make a big room and limit pigman etc. spawns elsewhere with nether groth or something, it could be a possibility. Only thing that comes to mind that would be a problem is drop collection, since you can't use water.