Philosophical ramblings (Was: My single problem with BTW.)

[Rawny]

Conclusion?

Play to have fun and if you don't have fun don't play it. (or if you feel its wrong, dont play with it).
People play games and watch movies to play a different character and be able to do things you never could (ex: Fly). If BTW was a copy of my normal life I'd ALT-F4 (for extra powers and levels of course) and start up steam

Off topic question: Who SAID that Steve is Evil? The ends do sometimes justify the means. Any Lawful-Good character can justify any evil in the name of good. What if he got sucked into there from "our" dimension and needs to colapse those world to save his own and return home... like I posted in another thread

"*Steve, now home, depleted of power and no longer having access to the flow of souls from this side of the dimensions, closes his eyes and dreams of returning to the magical land he so struggled to get away from. A female hand rushes through the air knocking away Steve's arm upon which his head was resting. "... aren't you even listing to me?! Where have you been?! It's another woman isn't it?! The kids and I were worried sick!"

[FlowerChild]

Take it easy on the religion guys. I have no rule against religious discussion on this forum, but I don't much care for the attacking of a particular religion or its history.

You can similarly attack just about any historical organization, religious or no. There are dark chapters in pretty much every book of human history.

So when a few of these recently became mandatory in order to get certain things out of the mod, that made me very sad, because it was a first for the mod. Until then, I didn't have to be outright cruel to peaceful creatures in order to get certain items.

Harnessing/enslaving souls has always been a part of this mod's tech-tree, right from the start man. This isn't new.

I think what might be happening is that people are beginning to run out of internal justifications about what it is they're doing, and I'm definitely cool with that.

[Blazara]

Ah, but the whole event is so much sweeter if you don't try to justify at all! I think it's easier to just revel in the untold darkness of my soul ;) You have revealed me to myself Flower <3

[Catox]

Harnessing/enslaving souls has always been a part of this mod's tech-tree, right from the start man. This isn't new.

I think what might be happening is that people are beginning to run out of internal justifications about what it is they're doing, and I'm definitely cool with that.

Well, if you don't care too much about the concept of soul (which would be equivalent to being not too much a religious or spiritual person), it makes a big difference : the souls we manipulated and tortured until now have always been like "dead things". Things you can't see and that you have to go mine in a hellish place.
I think Raust's point is that now the things we'll have to massively torture and kill are very much "alive" (if you consider skeletons and zombies as living things). They may even have to be "good" if we have to harvest villagers like he said.


Personally, if I generally don't play the bad guy when the choice is given to me, I don't take it personally when I have to do so.
Actually, I find there's a big difference between being bad to a good or innocent character in some rpg (should have a minor effect but it can bother me), and mass killing soulless citizen of a GTA game (really not a problem at all).

Paradoxes, I guess...

[Rianaru]

That's my point, though. You can't really seperate religion from occultish-magic stuff. The occultists I know (Ok, I know about 4) count their studies as their religious belief. A religion is just a set of beliefs over a range of topics that try to guide people while providing some sort of understanding of the world (and/or universe) in which we live. In my mind, even science is a form of religion.

This is exactly what I was saying. And in any case, it's a game. Even if it is devil worship, which it's not, it would be the same thing as shooting someone in an FPS, aka fake. This was said before, but I feel like this point needs to be emphasized.

[RaustBlackDragon]

So when a few of these recently became mandatory in order to get certain things out of the mod, that made me very sad, because it was a first for the mod. Until then, I didn't have to be outright cruel to peaceful creatures in order to get certain items.

Harnessing/enslaving souls has always been a part of this mod's tech-tree, right from the start man. This isn't new.

I think what might be happening is that people are beginning to run out of internal justifications about what it is they're doing, and I'm definitely cool with that.

I'm not running out of internal justifications for anything. It's not like the horrible ramifications of enchanting soulforged steel have suddenly been laid bare, they're completely different now. Powering up your weapons with energy obtained by killing monsters who want to kill you for no reason is nowhere near the same thing as powering up your weapon by doing to villagers what machines did to humans in the matrix.

[Caboose]

Wuss.

I dunno, I think I found an acceptable compromise:

Spoiler

Show

My "fanon" for vanilla Minecraft is that Steve is thrust forward into the future by his government to escape the apocalyptic invasion of the Enderdragon and his minions. Eventually Steve defeats the Ender Dragon and makes peace with the fact that he can't save his people, resolving to build a brighter future with the Testificates.

In Better Than Wolves, however, Steve cannot accept that he can't save his civilization and resorts to more and more extreme measures to save his "home". Better Than Wolves is more of a tragedy to me than it is a horror story.

[FlowerChild]

I'm not running out of internal justifications for anything. It's not like the horrible ramifications of enchanting soulforged steel have suddenly been laid bare, they're completely different now. Powering up your weapons with energy obtained by killing monsters who want to kill you for no reason is nowhere near the same thing as powering up your weapon by doing to villagers what machines did to humans in the matrix.

Dude...what about *creating* Soulforged Steel? What the heck do you think you were doing there that was even vaguely morally acceptable?

[morvelaira]

Wuss.

I dunno, I think I found an acceptable compromise:

Spoiler

Show

My "fanon" for vanilla Minecraft is that Steve is thrust forward into the future by his government to escape the apocalyptic invasion of the Enderdragon and his minions. Eventually Steve defeats the Ender Dragon and makes peace with the fact that he can't save his people, resolving to build a brighter future with the Testificates.

In Better Than Wolves, however, Steve cannot accept that he can't save his civilization and resorts to more and more extreme measures to save his "home". Better Than Wolves is more of a tragedy to me than it is a horror story.

Still slightly on the wussy side, since it's too easy to separate Steve's actions from your own in that scenario. But... not quite as wuss-like as before.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Dude...what about *creating* Soulforged Steel? What the heck do you think you were doing there that was even vaguely morally acceptable?

I fail to see how being trapped in a sword for all eternity is so much worse than being trapped in a rock for all eternity. At least as a sword they'll get a change of scenery.

Plus, the hellfire dust almost seems to say "thank you" as I make soul urns.

[morvelaira]

That retort makes no sense to me with your previous argument...

[Elevatator]

Dude...what about *creating* Soulforged Steel? What the heck do you think you were doing there that was even vaguely morally acceptable?

I fail to see how being trapped in a sword for all eternity is so much worse than being trapped in a rock for all eternity. At least as a sword they'll get a change of scenery.

Plus, the hellfire dust almost seems to say "thank you" as I make soul urns.

Also, it is recycling of the dragon´s soul poo. And recycling is good.

[FlowerChild]

I fail to see how being trapped in a sword for all eternity is so much worse than being trapped in a rock for all eternity. At least as a sword they'll get a change of scenery.

Ah, and there's the justification I was talking about. Like I said...now it's getting to the point where she be failing.

And ultimately man, you're complaining about optional upgrades to optional equipment. You don't *need* a looting enchantment, and you certainly don't need looting specifically on your SFS equipment. I don't even have that scroll myself. You also got the association between chickens and feather fall wrong. There are actually no enchants assigned to animals at present.

The scrolls are assigned to create additional incentive to building interesting mechanisms within the game. Namely: mob-traps of various kinds. Yes, there's definite moral ambiguity in some of them, but as I've said, that's nothing new to the mod.

[RaustBlackDragon]

That retort makes no sense to me with your previous argument...

What innocent creature am I "enslaving"? Certainly not anything with a single redeeming quality or any sense of compassion. These are ghasts, things driven to a murderous rage by my inexcusable crime of existing.

[FlowerChild]

What innocent creature am I "enslaving"? Certainly not anything with a single redeeming quality or any sense of compassion. These are ghasts, things driven to a murderous rage by my inexcusable crime of existing.

Who says they're ghasts? They *become* ghasts if you sufficiently torture them and cram them into too small a space, but there's nothing indicating they were ghasts at any point before then. Again...more justification...

[RaustBlackDragon]

What innocent creature am I "enslaving"? Certainly not anything with a single redeeming quality or any sense of compassion. These are ghasts, things driven to a murderous rage by my inexcusable crime of existing.

Who says they're ghasts? Again...more justification...

The thing is, there's no real-life equivalent to soul enslavement. What's so wrong about interpreting the intentionally vague canon in a way that doesn't make me feel like a jerk when my actions have absolutely no real-life counterpart that I in any way participate in?

[FlowerChild]

The thing is, there's no real-life equivalent to soul enslavement. What's so wrong about interpreting the intentionally vague canon in a way that doesn't make me feel like a jerk when my actions have absolutely no real-life counterpart that I in any way participate in?

Well, here you go:

Villagers are brainless creatures that aren't actually "alive". They're actually just zombies that didn't fully zombify and still go through the motions of day to day life. In reality though, they're evil soul-sucking creatures that must be destroyed.

Feel better?

[RaustBlackDragon]

Well, here you go:

Villagers are actually brainless creatures that aren't actually "alive". They're actually just zombies that didn't fully zombify and still go through the motions of day to day life. In reality though, they're evil soul-sucking creatures that must be destroyed.

Feel better?

...That is a very very difficult post to respond to tactfully, and considering my slight lack of sleep and work stress, I don't think I'll respond at this time.

[Rawny]

EeeeEEEeeee! How fun!
Amuck amuck amuck amuck!

[FlowerChild]

...That is a very very difficult post to respond to tactfully, and considering my slight lack of sleep and work stress, I don't think I'll respond at this time.

Dude, my point with the above is that your justification, and the example one I provided are no less based on the information provided to us as players.

We don't know what the faces in netherrack actually are. We don't know what villagers actually are either. You can justify the torture or enslavement of them however you choose by coming up with theories as to what they might actually be that support your own actions, but it remains exactly that: justification. It is in no way supported by the facts we have at hand.

To give another example, do you kill pig-men? If so, why? They're perfectly innocent creatures that just seem to be trying to eek out some kind of existence in a hellish environment, and who only attack you if you attack them first.

How can one then justify attacking such miserable creatures? Is it because they look different or "monstrous"? Is it because they carry gold?

[Sarudak]

How can one then justify attacking such miserable creatures? Is it because they look different or "monstrous"? Is it because they carry gold?

To be fair I did try asking nicely for their gold first...

[FlowerChild]

To be fair I did try asking nicely for their gold first...

I suggest offering them glass beads :)

[RaustBlackDragon]

I said I didn't want to respond because I'm stressed out and somewhat tired.

[Elevatator]

So in every way we are evil because we justify our actions based on the few we know, independent of we think it is good or evil?

[FlowerChild]

So in every way we are evil because we justify our actions based on the few we know, independent of we think it is good or evil?

Ultimately, it's up to you man. I think the looting enchantment is actually a perfect topic to revolve this conversation around.

What are your choices here really?

You can just keep playing without looting on your Battle Axe, and without it even being a bottle-neck in the tech tree.

Or, you can massacre countless villagers just so that you will get a bonus to the loot you collect as you're hacking things to bits with your axe, and either just be inherently comfortable with it, or attempt to justify those actions in some way.

Up to you.

Looks like all I've done here is present you with a moral choice, and without such choices, and without some incentive or temptation to be "evil", "good" could not exist.