BTW: Design Philosophy

[Belgarion]

By assuming that btw provides an impetus to create and sustain a settlement in what was previously an unstructured sandbox, the game is elevated from a pissing about simulator to a game with depth and a connection to the player.
For example, while previously many players would simply mine, build a castle, get diamond everything and then restart, by letting the player tangibly advance through the game world the player has a deeper connection with his creation, and therefore would possibly play on that world for longer.
Just idle speculation.

[BinoAl]

Hmm, whaddya know, btw users are smart :D
It's pretty great having a forum without all the 10 year old trolls from the mc forums, we can actually have intelligent conversations :D
Now. I think the reason that btw got so popular was it's uniqueness. Most mods just add a block or two, or a mismatched-feeling set of blocks like industrialcraft does. btw feels like it should already be in the game. It's a very logical progression of technology, and adds intriguing systems like mechanical energy. Before btw, the only real complex system to work with was redstone, and that was limited to lighting up dim torches and opening doors. Now, we have blocks that expand on redstone in ways it needed to be expanded, and adds a system to work with the redstone and make it actually do work :D The number of crazy creations you can make with this is just incredible. Self harvesting tree farms, automatic cobblestone factories, even elevators from your highest tower to the bottom of the world. Before btw, the only functional projects you could make that would actually require thought were things like redstone calculators, which really don't help you anyway.

[Fracture]

It's pretty great having a forum without all the 10 year old trolls

And now to wait for the obligatory "Hey, I'm 10!"

[a bear]

I guess you are quite an experienced gamedesigner, flowerchild, since this is the only, and by that i mean ONLY mod that adds some actual gameplay, something to aim on, at most times.

Vanilla: build shelter > make mine > get iron > get diamonds. pretty pointless.
most mods: build shelter > make mine > get iron > get diamonds > craft technical device/new weapon. bwah
btw mod: build shelter > make mine > get iron > make farm > make millstone > make waterwheel > get wolves for better farming > go to the nether, etc

its really good how you tried to, no, successfully added technological progress, and i really cant wait for future additions.

[Fracture]

I guess you are quite an experienced gamedesigner, flowerchild

He is (was?) a proffesional game designer haha.

[PlatinumBowser]

I remember the first time i saw the windmill actually start working and felt this emotion well up inside me as a minecraft nerd. It was like a whole new life was being breathed into a weary body. That and the other implementations of BTW have definitively given Minecraft a second wind in my opinion. I for one never saw the point in making automated farms or digging to the bottom of the world, To me it was about the building, but building buildings that served no real purpose is pointless, and with the saw and waterwill, and the whole mechanical energy system I find myself really wanting to dig deep into the Autonomy that is possible with farms, and actually go to the nether.

I can't wait to see what the future holds for both vM and BTW, I just hope there's less giant mushrooms in both of them than what I've seen so far x3

[morvelaira]

Here's my random and rambling thoughts on this ;)

I had only had a chance to read the first few posts in this thread last night before heading to bed, and the talk of Ages got me thinking. What is an Age? Where do we draw the line between one Age and the next? Why are those arbitrary lines so important that we let them affect our perception of history? In short, the answers I came up with are that Ages change when mankind figures out how to do things better - and so much better that it changes the way mankind lives. The neolithic age began when men climbed out of the caves and began to roam - a few important groups settling down permanently in man-made structures with the advent of agriculture. The bronze age began when men learned how to smelt soft metals to further their abilities. The iron age began when he learned how to work metals that were actually useful ;) So and and so forth.

Mankind strives and makes technological developments based around the survival of a group. While obviously not all the advancements are intentional, of course, they all do contribute to either the groups ability to obtain exotic resources, or the ability to collect less-exotic resources with less time. The difficulty in applying this to MC is that the general demand for technological advancement changes as the group changes. BTW being a single-player only mod, the group will never change. (While it is an interesting question to ask if the design philosophy would have been different if it was initially designed originally for SMP, that's a whole different conversation - and probably irrelevant to boot!) Since the group will never change, there's a slightly less natural impetus for the technology to develop. Instead we develop because we can! For Science!

*ahem* 'Scuse me... let me turn that inner Glados down.

Eitherway - these are the thoughts my mind has put together through the night. Useful? Tangent? You decide!

[Adjudicator79]

Wow, ok. Explosion of comments just since my morning post. I'll try to add some discussion on the topics here. (Just fyi, I post these replies reading through the new responses in order. So if I end up mentioning something some else brings up later on in the discussion, I apologize in advance.)

Triskelli: I think we should all take your disclaimer as a given when commenting in this thread. None of us, at least here on the mortal coil of the forums, work at Mojang or have designed an indie game. We are, by definition, consumers. So I'm right there with you, Triskelli.

This statement perfectly sums up my feelings on a technological progression in a game like Minecraft:

It would be as if Flower had chosen to add an Engine block instead of waterwheels or windmills. It does its job, most likely better than its chunkier counterparts. But it doesn't provide challenge on the part of the user to place it in his world. Slap it down anywhere, and you return to the same problem of "Why should I leave my mine?".

I can't tell you how much I agree with that. It's spot on!

As for multi-block systems, that is the "wave of the future" in my mind. Redstone even has some problems as a multi-block system in my mind, given it's design limitations. FlowerChild mentioned somewhere else about his dissatisfaction with the crossover between mechanical and redstone designs in the piston and I agree. It seems like redstone is a great idea with some serious flaws right now. But again, I'm a redstone newbie, so my opinion on that is jaded.

And I do know The Mysterious Island (hooray for my Jules Verne omnibus), but we are going to call that a bit off-topic and try to veer things back toward the initial question.

Battosay: We are thrilled to have you read our humble musings. Also, I now need to go edit my posts, as I realize I was misspelling your name. I'm my own grammar nazi.

Urian: Another VIP contributor. We are pleased to have you! I do think you latched on to our logical progression discussion right away. And the "learning curve" phrase is one that should have occurred to me and did not. It's a great way to frame the discussion since it hits two elements. There's Steve's learning curve in the game (he has to build a wood pickaxe to get stone, etc), but there's also the player's learning curve. Ideally, the latter will exceed the former. In my mind, at least, you want the player to be thoroughly familiar with how the tech tree works before completely exhausting the build options that tech tree opens up. So the last few items on the tech tree, to me, should be obvious implementations of in-game technological principles that the player has grasped by this point. That means that the jump to the next Age, when it comes, opens up a new way of exploiting current tech, as well as new tech to learn. The dual learning curves concept adds a good element to the discussion.

As for the multi-dimensional nature of some of the BTW blocks, I definitely find that to be a clear advantage in BTW design. The use of a block dispenser or detector block creates entirely new realms of tech advancement and implementation and, as we've mentioned before, does so while preserving the in-game continuity of the tech level.

Belgarion: I think your point about a connection to the player is a very valid one here. I know that I actually started numerous worlds over my initial Minecraft experience for the challenge of the early game. In fact, once I had grasped the inherent limitations of the diamond reset, I was prone to play a world for only a few days or maybe a week before going back to restart another. BTW does seem to provide a deeper connection to a world - I can't imagine Battosay scrapping a world and starting over just for the fun of it after he's put all the work into his bridges/farms/storage systems. And to me, that's the benefit of the BTW technological progression. It creates a stronger bond between the player and the game, thus ensuring repeat play.

BinoAl: Welcome. I'm glad to see the growing presences of moderators and Flying Turtles. Again, I think you latched on to our technological progression discussion easily (I guess it's not that difficult of a discussion, but I thought we'd start easy for the first topic!). I do like your point about previous large creations in vM. We can't really call them mechanical, since there wasn't true mechanical power, just the magic of redstone, but it is informative to realize that the tech tree (or lack of one) in vM led players to creating things like gigantic circuits imitating real life computers. The number of threads on these kinds of constructs over in the Minecraft forums is somewhat depressing, actually. It should have been a clear signal that something was off on the design side. Unless the game came from an experiment in creating virtual representations of simple computers, the existence of those projects should be a red flare to design that something's gone off the rails. Great point, BinoAl.

morvelaira: Great first post in the thread, morvelaira. I like how you fleshed out the questions surrounding an Age. I think it's official at this point, our next topic will be something along the lines of trying to define vM and BTWs distinct Ages. I'll work on what all that will entail tonight and we'll lead off with it tomorrow as our new discussion topic.

Thanks everyone for some great conversation. In just two days, this has become a nice relaxing mental exercise for me. And we appear to be restoring the moderators' and FlowerChild's faith in their subjects, so well done all!

[morvelaira]

*squee* My thoughts were useful! Hooray!

Alright - So it does sound like there are indeed two discussions going on here. There's the thoughts on the game design from a purely in-game perspective (such as my points about the various Ages) and from the perspective of how the game relates and interacts with the player. I know I'm not adding anything particularly to the discussion right now but sometimes it helps to type and lay all the pieces out for me. Like a jigsaw puzzle. ;)

[SterlingRed]

Great topic, I read through the last two pages and I figured I'd toss my two cents in. I pretty much agree with what everyone's already said in here.

Vanilla minecraft is great, but it doesn't really provide a sense of direction other than explore/mine. The tech tree, so to speak, really doesn't exist unless you can call upgrading tool materials a tech tree. There's no sense of development or progression in vM and as has already been discussed, no real reason to build more than one building, unless you're experimenting with different building styles. In which case, only the main base building serves any real purpose. However, much of the enchanting part of minecraft that makes it so popular, is that it is a sandbox game and its only limited by your creativity and craftable items.

BTW adds the missing elements to create a tech tree that gives a sense of progression and development in the game while still allowing the sandbox creative freedom aspect. With BTW I feel like I can actually create a developing civilization with multiple buildings each with a purpose. When I return from an exploring foray I can walk over a hill and look down on my little area with its farms, sawmill, millstone, windmill, gated home base, etc with a sense of wonder every time. That wonder isn't just from aesthetics. I get a sense of potential from what can be created with BTW, it makes the game feel alive. What can be created feels like it has a life of its own rather than the cold stone castles etc that are typically created with vM.

BTW makes it so that I feel like I'm living in minecraft, rather than just building stuff in a vast and empty landscape.

I'd love for BTW to have defined 'ages' as steve reaches technological milestones that usurer in a new era of development. BTW gives minecraft a development track while keeping the sandbox feel.

[Capax infiniti]

@Adjudicator79 First off I would like to apologise for the terrible grammar I displayed in my previous post. Once again I am reminded why I shouldn't be writing anything after midnight.

I agree with almost all of what you said. The only thing I might add is that the adventure update may be changing that, giving a more logical structure to the beginning of the game at least.

Thanks for humouring me. :)

Capax

[Battlecat]

The discussion of design philosophy particularly fascinates me. One series of articles I read quite regularly is by a gentleman named Mark Rosewater, who some of you will know as the current head designer of Magic the Gathering. One of his particularly interesting philosophies on design is that restrictions actually encourage creativity rather than stifling it.

Now in the case of Vanilla Minecraft, one difficulty I often have is trying to figure out what to do next. Once you've gotten yourself fully established in an area there isn't any obvious goal, or constraint on what to do next. Except for building large structures and acquiring more resources, there are few goals in the game at this point. Occasionally I find myself flailing about on huge projects that I may never finish just trying to find something to do. Additionally, the crafting bench while intuitive and easy doesn't actually allow for any creativity since it's this magic box that allows the creation anything from an axe to a jukebox. No restrictions = no creative crafting solutions or systems. It doesn't surprise me at all that some of the most creative systems in the vanilla game come from attempting to set up farming operations such as cactus and reeds.

Looking at the impact of the Better Than Wolves mod, what I see are a series of cogs and tools that can be combined within restrictions to do very creative things. They create a very definite series of tasks that need to be accomplished to move from just surviving with your bare hands through to a windmill or elevator for example. Those tasks are restrictive but there are multiple options for accomplishing them and those options rarely involve simple repetitive tasks on the crafting bench. You need to build and use task specific tools such as the millstone, hand crank and saws. And there doesn't appear to be a single use or approach for powering these systems even though there are specific restrictions on how those tools can be powered (such as the millstone).

The design philosophy I see in Better than Wolves is challenge through restrictions. Get X to get Y to get Z is a key in any game from the Tech Tree in the Civilization series to the tool tree in Vanilla minecraft (stone -> iron -> diamond). But vanilla minecraft doesn't go far enough. Longer tech trees and goals that are further out of reach simultaneously increase satisfaction at an accomplishment, narrow down you next steps to a few obvious choicse and provides solid realistic long term direction to the game.

And boy I've rambled on. Hope it doesn't bore anyone.

[morvelaira]

The discussion of design philosophy particularly fascinates me. One series of articles I read quite regularly is by a gentleman named Mark Rosewater, who some of you will know as the current head designer of Magic the Gathering. One of his particularly interesting philosophies on design is that restrictions actually encourage creativity rather than stifling it.

The only caveat I'd add to that idea is that restrictions encourage /directional/ creativity. Everyone will be working to find a way around those restrictions, or at least that is the frame of mind that people will be starting out with. To truly open up the doors of creativity, you need to tear down all the restrictions you can. That kind of creativity, however, is rare and not something the average person can dredge up from inside themselves. That is where you need a visionary.

Necessity might be the mother of Invention, but Creativity comes from the void that is the soul.

/wax poetic off

[empath]

One thing that I think minecraft needs more than anything else is more possibilities for specialization, not just for players, but for spaces. People CAN create castles with various buildings, houses etc, in vanilla minecraft but there's no real reason to. With BTW, you're creating the ability to improve places by making them more productive -- which also makes them less useful for other things. You now have a reason to store grain and flour in one building, and to put cooking in another building and have animals in another building, and have lumber stored in another building. It just makes the whole thing feel more natural and real.

I'm actually not sure how I feel about fully automated systems for planting and harvesting animals and plants. Mob grinders, etc, have always felt like cheating to me and I refuse to build them. I'd prefer to have more efficient methods of collecting resources, rather than entirely unattended methods -- you should be able to eventually greatly multiply your effort by investing time and resources into a building, but you should never be able to just walk away and come back to infinite piles of resources.

I think minecraft also needs larger biomes, and more diversity in what is available in each biome. I'd like to be able to find rich seams of diamonds by searching for them, and then have to build a railway track or portals to get them back to my home base, or to have more rare plants and animals that only exist in certain conditions. I'd also like to have a more formal system for 'domesticating' mobs and plants, instead of the hacky ones that exist now.

[Danyo]

I have to say that even though I like the idea of (st)ages in the game, I wouldn't want them to become TOO obvious, rather have them be subtle hints, without actually realizing that you moved on a stage. Ofcourse when you look back on it and think about it, you'll have them and notice it, but during normal gameplay, I wouldn't wanna "feel" the need to advance quickly or think about moving on to the next (st)age, rather have a feeling of, oh I can make x now that I have y, without really tagging them within certain brackets. The main reason why I say this is that in the end, the goal in minecraft should still stick to being a sandbox game, where you set goals yourself, and not have goals set for you by someone.

I don't know for sure if my point came across properly... but still gonna go with it and see what people have to say :)

edit.:

I'm actually not sure how I feel about fully automated systems for planting and harvesting animals and plants. Mob grinders, etc, have always felt like cheating to me and I refuse to build them. I'd prefer to have more efficient methods of collecting resources, rather than entirely unattended methods -- you should be able to eventually greatly multiply your effort by investing time and resources into a building, but you should never be able to just walk away and come back to infinite piles of resources.

I understand where you are coming from, it's a personal opinion really, for my personal view on it, I like to build things like that, even though I'm really bad at building them, but 90% of the time, when I make one of these things, I end up not using them, because I just prefer to get some materials myself, put myself in a dangerous area etc, and have a bit of a challenge for myself. ( Even though I absolutely hate cutting down trees, especially the big ones xD )

[Supernaut]

Just to toss in my 2 cents, I only found out about BTW just as minecraft was upgraded to 1.7, however from what I've seen I think that something is in general lacking in vM which is much more common in BTW, and that is the combination of different player made items to make yet more complex and more useful items. This isn't very common in vM, the only things i can think of off the top of my head are the powered and storage minecarts and then maps. But it's an important part of advancing technology, having more layered and complex items which are ultimately increasingly useful. So it's definitely something BTW has in it's favour by this being a more frequent feature.

And in regards with knowing how to progress your tech, it gives a logical and easy to follow line, one step leading to the next. No one wants to be hand-led through everything, but like I said, clear and logical progression adds a more cohesive feel to the game, as well as a new sense of purpose!

[Adjudicator79]

Ok, I was planning to wait until this evening to post, but if I wait that long, it'll take me an hour to answer all of this!

SterlingRed: Glad you found the topic interesting. I completely agree with you about the sense of wonder that BTW can add to vM. We're definitely going to pick up the Ages conversation, starting tomorrow.

Capax: No worries, mate. You'll notice multiple edits on my posts. If I spot any errors I have to go back in and correct them. And there were quite a few on last night's post, as I was pretty wiped by then too. And while the adventure update may change some things about technological progression, I would assert that Adventure Mode is a different game than vM. Imposing technological progression through quest driven game development is a far cry from what BTW does in the sandbox realm of vM.

Battlecat: I think you and I are on a similar wavelength. I definitely agree with the concept of guided creativity. Even Minecraft imposes obvious restrictions on the player and I would hazard that Minecraft is the most sandbox game I've ever played.

Looking at the impact of the Better Than Wolves mod, what I see are a series of cogs and tools that can be combined within restrictions to do very creative things.

This statement fits in with what we've been discussing as far as the technological progression that BTW offers.

morvelaira: I'm going to disagree slightly with you here, morvelaira. While I agree that there can be greater creativity without limits, useful creativity requires channels, strictures, boundaries. Even the greatest of artists often imposed restrictions on themselves - only working with certain mediums, in certain sizes, or even only painting/sculpting/composing certain subjects, etc. The imposed restrictions of games prevent things like Battlecat mentioned - having a chest full of resources and no idea of what to do with them.

empath: I hadn't really thought of the use of the spaces that BTW promotes as "specialization," but I see what you mean. And it does impose a sense of resource management that isn't present in vM. As for automated systems, they are really design philosophy - they're player implementation and that's a bit outside the scope of this thread. Biomes, though, might be a worthwhile discussion for later. I'd be interested to discuss whether separate biomes have a real impact on the game outside of resource availability.

Danyo: I'm conflicted about the distinction between different stages. Part of me likes the arbitrarily imposed sense of accomplishment that "advancing" to a new age brings. But Minecraft isn't really about that kind of advancement, so it may be something I get used to not having. We'll bring this up again in tomorrow's discussion.

Supernaut: I was just thinking today about the use of crafted items to make more complex items. I came up with redstone repeaters as another (redstone torches required), but you're right, there's not much else. This is what I meant when I commented on Urian's "learning curve" comment. Advanced items requiring previously crafted items promotes player knowledge of the current tech level before rewarding further technological advancements.

Great discussion, people. We'll let this go through the night and then open up our new discussion topic tomorrow.

[Masterhand243]

I believe, the design philosophy is to create a polished add-on to the game that delivers a completely new, mechanical-based toolset for the players to use. The mod fits in perfectly with what Minecraft already has. . Everything seems to be well thought out, Nothing feels out-of-place or overpowered, and everything serves multiple purposes.

[Supernaut]

promotes player knowledge of the current tech level before rewarding further technological advancements.

Hit the nail on the head with that.

[Fracture]

One thing that I think minecraft needs more than anything else is more possibilities for specialization, not just for players, but for spaces. People CAN create castles with various buildings, houses etc, in vanilla minecraft but there's no real reason to. With BTW, you're creating the ability to improve places by making them more productive -- which also makes them less useful for other things. You now have a reason to store grain and flour in one building, and to put cooking in another building and have animals in another building, and have lumber stored in another building. It just makes the whole thing feel more natural and real.

Very true. BTW gives us a reason to expand outward, divide our production/collection locations, and protect them properly-- not only from monsters but from the weather itself, in the case of the windmill.

I'm actually not sure how I feel about fully automated systems for planting and harvesting animals and plants. Mob grinders, etc, have always felt like cheating to me and I refuse to build them. I'd prefer to have more efficient methods of collecting resources, rather than entirely unattended methods -- you should be able to eventually greatly multiply your effort by investing time and resources into a building, but you should never be able to just walk away and come back to infinite piles of resources.

The goal in any survival game is almost invariably at first to survive, then to expand, and finally to go for leisure. You go from cave, to home, to palace. The "end-game" of Minecraft is automated processes-- your production becomes steadily more efficient until it becomes automated. Even then though, you're not done-- you can still mesh that with other systems. That's one thing I like about buildcraft-- it allows you to progress further with your automation, but I don't like the way it does it. If it had a more BTW-esque feel, I might use it, but as it is, it just doesn't fit with MC.

[Gdnite]

I would just like to throw this out there, but in other mods like plastic craft, industrialcraft, or even mod boxes (Yogbox, or the Now box) there is so much you can do, but everything has its own specialized purpose. They arn't really tools they are pre-made machines. So there arn't any really "creative uses" other than the pre-determined.

However, in BTW everything has multiple uses, the waterwheels/pullys can be used in a very large amount of ways. Not just "Hey I have an auto miner the mines all the ore in little tubes", no i can have a pully pull a gate up to wash my crops out, or i can make a giant obsidian factory. There is a complete logical thought process that goes into this and my personal hope is than in the future "ages" it becomes harder and harder to make things work like actually technology. That's why there arn't any 10 year old trolls on this forum, its too hard for most of the to comprehend the mod.

[Triskelli]

Heheh... One last comment from me before we move to the next topic tomorrow.

I have to agree with Masterhand that Flowerchild is looking more towards creating a polished mod on every level, than to expound on the morals that Minecraft has to teach us.

That's because the themes of Minecraft are virtually non-existent, and instead we must rely on ourselves to create and explore the human condition via the massive sandbox we've been given. The ideas of expansion, conservation, threat, and survival, of our role in the preservation or conquest of nature aren't given to us via cut-scenes, dialog or exposition. Instead, these morals present themselves through self contemplation.

So in short, the lessons we take from Minecraft are based on the experience of the individual. Flowerchild is just expanding the already large base to create further meaningful experiences.

*EDIT*

Would love to see Flowerchild's perspective on these *ahem* ... hypotheses, as I know he's been reading the thread =]

[empath]

The goal in any survival game is almost invariably at first to survive, then to expand, and finally to go for leisure. You go from cave, to home, to palace. The "end-game" of Minecraft is automated processes-- your production becomes steadily more efficient until it becomes automated. Even then though, you're not done-- you can still mesh that with other systems. That's one thing I like about buildcraft-- it allows you to progress further with your automation, but I don't like the way it does it. If it had a more BTW-esque feel, I might use it, but as it is, it just doesn't fit with MC.

Usually in survival games, as you get more power, the challenge also increases. I guess there will be more of that when the adventure mode comes out.

[thenoobfactor]

The design of better then wolves really fits my playstyle. When I play minecraft, I make mother nature my bitch. I see many people like to make easy to hide mines that can be covered up, or replant forests they gather wood from. I make strip mines and clear cut forests (or simply burn them out of spite). The devices in BTW give me all the more reason to rape the environment. I am hoping the mod will add in some more useful output for the energy in the future though. My hydroelectric dam and planned wind farm are a little overkill for an elevator and a couple grindstones.

[Fracture]

The design of better then wolves really fits my playstyle. When I play minecraft, I make mother nature my bitch. I see many people like to make easy to hide mines that can be covered up, or replant forests they gather wood from. I make strip mines and clear cut forests (or simply burn them out of spite). The devices in BTW give me all the more reason to rape the environment. I am hoping the mod will add in some more useful output for the energy in the future though. My hydroelectric dam and planned wind farm are a little overkill for an elevator and a couple grindstones.

That's the thing though-- BTW effectively fits every playstyle. Be it a quiet water-wheel powered milling house by a stream, or a huge dam for incredible amounts of power, a small work shop or an automated tree-devouring plant, an unobtrusive windmill or a landscape dominating wind farm-- BTW lets you play your way, with new tools.