Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX east)

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Dextralus
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Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX east)

Post by Dextralus »

Video below:
Spoiler
Show
A very good video, though at nearly an hour it may be too long for your tastes. The question period begins around 38 minutes in. While it may be preaching to the choir in these forums, from what I've seen, I hope you'll watch at least a part of it.

My own experiences of harassment don't equivocate well here - it's challenging to telegraph your orientation over voice chat. But I sympathize with the panelists and the people who have communicated with them about the catharsis and the sense of solidarity that comes with sharing your experiences of the crap that online gaming communities can offer, and the sometimes difficulty that can arise from the commentary that other people have on that sharing.

I've developed fairly thick skin for this shit over the years (elsewise, I wouldn't bother playing games anymore) but still these incidents crop up periodically. Playing prophunt in TF2 I was once treated to a 5-minute long angry rant about the "gays" and "black folks" (I euphemise his words) after someone used an Obama spray, and it put me off playing multiplayer games for a few weeks. A habit of picking female avatars in other games (principally WoW) has also exposed me to some of the things people will quite readily say to anyone they perceive as a woman online.

One of the panelists offered the "politics of fun" solution at the end, which made me reflect on how I've responded to this issue. The assessment is rather bleak, being that it involves mostly retreating to the spaces I know are safe and clean. Struggling with the balance of preserving my own sense of fun and relaxation with the impulse to try and educate or otherwise deal with assholes has always tipped to the former, and so I sometimes wonder if I owe some effort in the latter to the people who came before me, dealing with way worse shit and carving out those spaces in the first place.

Their point about the assumed ages of these people is also worth mentioning. Not only is it inaccurate to lay the blame on kids and teenagers, it's also unfair and rather flawed. The assumptions that are carried with this (that they'll just grow out of it) are annoying, as is the general sense that it's somehow less bad that they're young people.
Last edited by Dextralus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ThatOneDude
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by ThatOneDude »

Can you fix the YouTube link? All you need to do is change it from the link to the actual video to the video description. (The part of the video URL after "=")

I don't have a free hour now, but I'll watch the video later. It seems interesting.
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Dextralus
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by Dextralus »

ThatOneDude wrote:Can you fix the YouTube link? All you need to do is change it from the link to the actual video to the video description. (The part of the video URL after "=")

I don't have a free hour now, but I'll watch the video later. It seems interesting.

Oh, whoops. Thanks for letting me know.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by FlowerChild »

Not to belittle your point in any way, but to perhaps bring a little levity into an otherwise serious subject:

Back in the Quake 2 days, me and a buddy joined a server in which the operator was throwing around homophobic slurs every 2 minutes. We decided to stage a little "passive resistance" protest on the spot.

The map consisted of two castles with a bridge in the middle, in a team deathmatch game, so we invited everyone that objected to come and stand on the bridge in the middle and perform the wave emote continually while not firing their weapons. About half the server joined in, while the other half gleefully fragged us over and over again. We of course just continued running to the middle and waving, and fragging us got rather old.

Completely wrecked the game and server. Passive resistance for the win.
Nexus Trimean
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by Nexus Trimean »

It was well worth the hour it took to watch, My Girlfriend and i Play a lot of wow together, and she has dealt with harrasment in the as well as once or twice a week currently. Its Insane, I often feel like an island for calling people out, but its nice to see that there are some decent people in the world. and that there are a few dev's at least that are trying to give players the tools to police there own community.
Mr_Hosed
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by Mr_Hosed »

<shrug> Any anonymous venue will denegrate to the basist of communications and nothing is more base then lust and hate.

Further evidence that I chose correctly to remain without a mic and to mute all players in my online games.

Edit: Oops. Forgot to include my value-add (aka my point for commenting)

Because of the nature of anonymous chat (Text of VOIP), the only solution is to either become immune to the idiocy or to remove your self from their venues.

I look at dealing with online harassers as the same thing as dealing with cheats. Either remove the cheater from the system or remove yourself. Likewise, remove the harassers or remove yourself.
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VitaFrench
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by VitaFrench »

Typically I play games without mics or talking, yet when I hear or see harassment I tend to support the victim. Saying that I don't scoop to the harassers level. I usually perform the same tactics over till they get bored of harassing similar to FC's idea. That's one thing that really grinds my gears is seeing or hearing someone getting trolled or picked on.
Mr_Hosed wrote:Either remove the cheater from the system or remove yourself. Likewise, remove the harassers or remove yourself
That's the beauty of having mute or hide features in most games. As much harassment that goes on in many games that I enjoy playing I'd hate to remove myself from the pleasure I get from playing.
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morvelaira
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by morvelaira »

Those who have been here a while have probably heard a horror story or two of mine, being a woman who is not shy about letting the intarwebz know her gender, as well as actually working in the games industry.

I want to make it clear that there is harrasment, and then there is, /harrasment/. The first is just the kind that ruins your day. You still take a stand against it, but you have to let yourself be like a duck and have it roll right off of you. Don't just ignore it, but don't let it weigh you down either. It's good practice for the second kind.

The second kind of harrasment may not always come with more sinister intent, but is much more dangerous. It's the kind that will affect your career, lead to physical harm, and generally change the course of your life. This is why the first type must be stood up to - to stopit devolving into this. It must be resisted at all costs.

I unfortunately have experienced both kinds of harrassment many times, and I expect I will face it many times to come in the future. (Delt with one idiot who couldn't get over the fact that I have boobs today, even ;) It can't just be those of us who are harrassed who deals with it, though. We need the folks on the sidelines to stand with us, and those who may be harrassers to take a good look at themselves and realize what they may be doing - and then to give a damn about it to be successful. It's not just about gender. Everyone is harrassed about something at some point.

/rambly post off
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The Phoenixian
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by The Phoenixian »

Mr_Hosed wrote:<shrug> Any anonymous venue will denegrate to the basist of communications and nothing is more base then lust and hate.
I would disagree with you on part of that point: Any unmanaged (or unmanageable) community will eventually degenerate. Even a massive or anonymous community can remain friendly if there are clear and actively enforced rules.

Of the various "good" forums and communities I've seen, of which this one is included, every single one shares at least active enforcement.
Although I will note that this, and the previous conjecture, is very anecdotal.

----------

And on the original topic: I haven't experienced much of harassment, sex&gender based or otherwise, nor seen it happen to those around me so I'm definitely in the "listen, don't talk" category but I do have a link to a similar video on this topic. (This one focused on addressing the problem in terms of solving it)
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment
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Starshifterxen
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by Starshifterxen »

I totally agree with you Morv, in that it is up to everyone to take a stand. This helps to ensure a strong community where harassment of any kind is not tolerated and teaching/training is encouraged. However you also need the game designers/moderators to take a strong stance on it, as people need to see that standing up to harassment has an impact and is recognised as antisocial behaviour.

Gabe Newells latest comments in this space are interesting (regarding DOTA 2):
“We’re trying to figure out ways so that people who are more valuable to everybody else [are] recognised and accommodated [for]. We all know people where, if they’re playing, we want to play, and there are other people where if they’re playing we would [rather] be on the other side of the planet.
“It’s just a question of coming up with mechanisms that recognise and reward people who are doing things that are valuable to other groups of people.”

This sounds promising, although how they will achieve it will be interesting.

All harassment is bad, but gender specific harassment is just plain ridiculous. Girls are just as good as boys at gaming. To be honest the more women who play games the better as it will stop gaming being seen as a geek pursuit and will make my conversation pieces go down better at parties.
Dextralus
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Re: Panel on harassment of women in online gaming (at PAX ea

Post by Dextralus »

I agree with what's been said above - you need to have community participation in asserting that this kind of behaviour isn't going to be tolerated. And that doesn't necessarily mean everyone has to be an activist in Battlefield 3 - it runs a fairly broad range of responses that include reporting the shit, to the FC-style passive resistance (great story by the way), as well as the more vocal and direct confrontations with harassment.

The DOTA2 approach is interesting, though I'm skeptical even that can rescue MOBA games from themselves. I guess I should give them some credit, but my (granted, limited) experiences with LoL and HoN have been so overwhelmingly negative...
Nexus Trimean wrote:I often feel like an island for calling people out, but its nice to see that there are some decent people in the world. and that there are a few dev's at least that are trying to give players the tools to police there own community.
I had the exact same experiences back when my guild in WoW was just a bunch of people struggling with those magic-immune mobs in Shadowfang Keep. There were so few of us that offering even a weak objection to the misogynist and creepy things said by some of our early members felt like putting a nail in our hand. Thankfully someone with more guts than me really put her foot down on it. Turned out for the best, the majority of us supported her and what was left after that was a far more enjoyable, friendly space.
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