Math /flee

Devalish · Post by **Devalish** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:32 pm

So, i talked to someone that programs, and he told me that, for programming games,
you need to know at least the basics of vectors (linear Algebra, i think) and Matrices.
But now, the problem, I have never seen this stuff in school, the Internet isn't really helping,
and a book i got from the library isn't helping a lot either.

Does anyone here know how these work, have a good book on the subject, or a website that is decent?

*edit forgot to type a whole word 0.o ... twice ...

Kwilt · Post by **Kwilt** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:21 pm

I could help with vectors a bit (though I'd be a tad bit rusty), but I never got around to matrices, unfortunately.

Fracture · Post by **Fracture** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:45 pm

I have an excellent grasp of math, but I'm not really a good teacher when not in person. If you come across any difficult questions or concepts though, feel free to PM me and I'll help.

ilovekintoki · Post by **ilovekintoki** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:58 am

Mathematics? I luuuuuuuv mathematics.

This is the material we used for Linear Algebra: http://www.mathe2.uni-bayreuth.de/stoll ... gebraI.pdf

I would recommend skipping most of chapter 6 (except for the definitions) and the entire chapters 7, 9, 10 and 16. Alternatively, I could take the time to write a summary for you.

Devalish · Post by **Devalish** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:21 am

Thanks guys (and gals?), will check that link, and, if more questions are raised, I'll ask for sure.

Gilberreke · Post by **Gilberreke** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:50 am

I used to work as a math teacher, feel free to ask questions :)

Devalish · Post by **Devalish** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:00 am

Will do, as soon as i can translate this from Dutch to English :)

Devalish · Post by **Devalish** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:45 am

to the person that posted that pdf link, what the *beep* ?

1/8 of it I've seen in school and remembered, 1/8 I've seen in school and forgot,
3/4 of it I have never seen in my life and took me off guard gasping for air.

I think i need to learn more than linear algebra alone ... :')

Gilberreke · Post by **Gilberreke** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:15 am

You can ask me in Dutch too, I'm from Belgium as well :)

EDIT: I would like to point out that for programming, no linear algebra knowledge is required. Discrete math is much more prevalent, which is a different beast altogether. Vectors and matrices come in when you start doing 3D stuff, which frankly, even with the added linear algebra, is way out of your skill scope for starting out.

I recommend that when you want to learn to program, you start programming and fill in knowledge gaps as you go by looking it up.

Devalish · Post by **Devalish** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:29 am

sweet ^^

well, i you check the pdf, page 2, "We will also use notation like the following.".
Below this line, i don't understand a thing, at all :P
The stuff above it, i can grasp with some logic.

Gilberreke · Post by **Gilberreke** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:42 am

Each notation symbol has a meaning. Union, summation, etc

Symbols on top usually mean "from", symbols below mean "to".

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sommatie
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vereniging ... genleer%29
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doorsnede_ ... genleer%29
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verschil_% ... genleer%29

You should be able to figure out pi notation as products, as it's the same as the summation, just with products. It seems like you need to look up a primer on set theory (verzamelingenleer).

Devalish · Post by **Devalish** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:52 am

Can do, my homework is set ! :)

SterlingRed · Post by **SterlingRed** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:18 pm

The reason you've never seen what you're finding on linear algebra before is that most of the linear algebra for programming isn't taught in high school. Its college level. Plus at least for public American schools, the math classes are pretty basic. If you run into anything where you need calculus/differential equations, let me know. I never took a linear algebra class so I wouldn't be a whole lot of help there.

Gilberreke · Post by **Gilberreke** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:41 pm

Here in Belgium, even people in courses with few mathematics get what would be considered "USA college level mathematics" in high school.

The USA is a country which has a very low math standard in high school (not necessarily a bad thing, just a different approach that's more college-oriented), while Belgium is one of the most math-oriented countries in the world (there are studies).

Again, not spouting an opinion on which way is best.

ilovekintoki · Post by **ilovekintoki** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:31 pm

Devalish: If you want, I can still make that summary for you. I think many of the things in this piece are unnecessary for most applications. For example, the notation for unions, intersections, sums and products over an arbitrary number of sets/numbers are nice to have, but not necessary when you will mostly be working in the R^2 and R^3 (at least, that's what I expect to be the case when you're programming in 3D) anyway.

Devalish · Post by **Devalish** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:55 pm

ilovekintoki wrote:Devalish: If you want, I can still make that summary for you. I think many of the things in this piece are unnecessary for most applications. For example, the notation for unions, intersections, sums and products over an arbitrary number of sets/numbers are nice to have, but not necessary when you will mostly be working in the R^2 and R^3 (at least, that's what I expect to be the case when you're programming in 3D) anyway.

If you can find some spare time, and the will to do it, that would be nice,
but don't feel like it's something you have to do please.

Gdnite · Post by **Gdnite** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:50 pm

I'm going to save you tons of confusion here, go to this site.

http://www.khanacademy.org/

This guy makes these lessons, for free, and he has thousands of them. There should be what you are looking for in this.

finite8 · Post by **finite8** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:34 pm

Hint: If you are starting out with games programming, use a Open Source or Free Graphics Engine. Trying to write your own code to render 3D graphics is difficult even if you are good with maths.

Vectors are used more commonly with working with motion and positions in a 3D/2D space. To describe it Mathematically:

Position + ((Direction * Velocity) * TimeSpan) = Position at new Time

Matricies are used to Translate Vectors and Points in 2D / 3D space. Translating includes Rotating, Stretching, Skewing, Mirroring, and Moving.

So, to sum up Simply, you will be using Vectors to control the position of your in-game object and Matricies to Modify the 3D Model on-screen.

This is why you should start off by using an already written Engine as they already handle all of this for you.

ilovekintoki · Post by **ilovekintoki** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:52 am

Devalish wrote:
ilovekintoki wrote:Devalish: If you want, I can still make that summary for you. I think many of the things in this piece are unnecessary for most applications. For example, the notation for unions, intersections, sums and products over an arbitrary number of sets/numbers are nice to have, but not necessary when you will mostly be working in the R^2 and R^3 (at least, that's what I expect to be the case when you're programming in 3D) anyway.
If you can find some spare time, and the will to do it, that would be nice,
but don't feel like it's something you have to do please.

No problem man, I've been meaning to refresh my LaTeX-code for some time and this is an excellent opportunity to do so.

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