Spatial automation games (Infinifactory, Great Permutator..)

[Gilberreke]

**** WARNING: INFINIFACTORY SPOILERS IN THE THREAD ****

I've been fascinated by spatial automation games for a while. I've always hoped that there would one day be a cool minecraft mod that did spatial automation too, but afaik, there isn't one yet.

What is spatial automation? The second part, automation, is easy to define. It's when an assembly type setup is a core gameplay mechanism. There's tons of mods for MC, such as BTW; there's a few good games that feature it, like Factorio and certain RPS hybrids (heck, even DOTA style games feature this in part).

The first word spatial implies that the use of space is an issue in the automation. BTW and a few other mods (not a lot though), as well as Factorio for example, use a simple spatial system, where the options to move stuff are limited (as opposed to, say, Buildcraft style mods, which feature no spatial system) and the machines tend to be large and clunky. This will force the player to not only find a good assembly, but to engineer it spatially. You can go much further than this though. Games like SpaceChem and InfiniFactory really push the spatial part by forcing you to rotate products, force products to revisit the same part of the assembly belt, etc.

The distinction between something like SpaceChem and something like Factorio is huge imo. I'm wondering if there are other games that don't come from Zachtronics that feature advanced spatial reasoning combined with automata. You can use this thread to post general automation games too though, so we can compare. Stuff like Great Permutator comes to mind

[kazerima]

This may be a little out of date, but do you think this might qualify as a part of the genre?
I have some fond memories of having tried it once at a friend's place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incred ... 8series%29

[FlowerChild]

SpaceChem and Infinifactory are the only ones I've played. I recently found out about Great Permutator (through posts related to Infinifactory actually), but have yet to try it.

I guess The Incredible Machine (mentioned in post above) could kinda sorta not really be considered one, and I played that many years ago when it first came out, but there's something missing to it that wouldn't really have me classify it as the same thing. It didn't really have you automating anything as much as just getting objects from point A to B and you definitely weren't constructing complex shapes in 2 or 3 dimensions out of your contraptions. Lemmings could even be considered along a similar genre in some ways I guess.

SpaceChem definitely had a heavy influence on the design of some of the BTW mechanisms, and on my thinking as a designer overall. It really was a brilliant game although I think it was partially hobbled sales wise due to its abstract theme. It really wasn't about chemistry in terms of what the game play actually consisted of, but I suspect a lot of people thought it was, and thus had a hard time relating to it.

I suspect Infinifactory will have much more mass appeal as a result. I think people will have a much easier time relating to the blocks and physical creations you make out of them.

[Gilberreke]

I'm struggling to define what part about Zach's games make them more complex from a spatial standpoint, but they are. All I know is that hardcore buckets did add more spatial reasoning to BTW for example.

The reason I opened this thread is to talk about some more abstract game design concerning these types of games, without littering the InfiniFactory thread with theoretical wankery.

[FlowerChild]

All I know is that hardcore buckets did add more spatial reasoning to BTW for example.

Yup, that's true, but that was actually inspired by Terraria, and I believe was in BTW before I had ever played SpaceChem.

I think I may have already been on that design tangent pre SpaceChem actually, as I *think* I started doing stuff like the urns being filled beneath hoppers and such before seeing it, but I know certain aspects later on were definitely influenced by it, like "compacting" blocks with pistons.

I don't think it inspired any specific ideas as much as it caused me to think more actively about 3D manipulation of objects as part of automation and causing me to make the realization that this was definitely where things were going in the future.

I'm struggling to define what part about Zach's games make them more complex from a spatial standpoint, but they are.

Yup, big time, and I think it's the natural evolution of MC style automation. To me, it basically comes down to consistency. MC automation suffers somewhat from having this artificial differentiation between object types (blocks and items, and particularly blocks in item form), and even Factorio does this to a certain extent. That is entirely absent from Zach's designs. There's no artificial boundaries to handle different types of objects, there's just one unified set of rules that govern them all.

Like, "the great spoiler incident of 2015" aside, the whole aspect of being able to move factory blocks around on conveyors essentially floored me. I was so used to thinking in terms of "different blocks behave in different ways" that it hadn't even occurred to me to try anything like that until you mentioned the possibility of clocks, then in wondering what possible purpose sending component blocks around a loop could serve and how you couldn't fuck up your assembly line in the process, I suddenly had an "oh shit! You can do that!?" moment where everything clicked.

Earlier today I was playing around with conveyors moving around conveyors for fuck sake, and I think this is the area where Zach's games are really standing out. They're almost like the unified theory of game design ;)

[Gilberreke]

Yeah, the reason it didn't trigger as a spoiler was because I thought people were using the product blocks for clocks and I was like "why the hell would you do that?". It was only later I figured out I can put anything on a conveyor. I mean, I'd seen it happen before, but it didn't register for me how important that was.

But yeah, like Manufactoid (you HAVE played that one I hope?) and Spacechem before, every time Zach releases something, I'm dumbfounded. I do feel like there's a genre here and I know I've seen other games do it though.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, the reason it didn't trigger as a spoiler was because I thought people were using the product blocks for clocks and I was like "why the hell would you do that?". It was only later I figured out I can put anything on a conveyor. I mean, I'd seen it happen before, but it didn't register for me how important that was.

Yup, that's exactly right for me as well. I had of course noticed the factory blocks collapsing if unsupported, so it follows that physics are applied to them as well, which is why I clued into it as soon as you mentioned the loops, but until you did I had a logical disconnect going between the "types" of blocks, when they're all really the same thing :)

Don't know if you've started looking at logic gates yet, but that's when the genius of the system really hit home for me. I'm not even entirely certain if they were planned, or if they're just emergent behavior based on the unified theory of blockiness :)

But yeah, like Manufactoid (you HAVE played that one I hope?)

Nope, I don't think I have. SpaceChem was actually my introduction to Zachtronics games, and while I did go back and try some of the flash based ones, I'm not sure if I tried that one.

and Spacechem before, every time Zach releases something, I'm dumbfounded. I do feel like there's a genre here and I know I've seen other games do it though.

Yeah, Zach is amazing man. He strikes me as the same kind of uncompromising designer that I try to be where he really pushes a concept to the max and lets things get super challenging. Infinifactory isn't all that difficult, but man, the second half of SpaceChem is a real kick in the pants. I've yet to finish it actually, and having finished Infinifactory it's given me a push to give it another go.

I really don't know if I've ever seen anything else along these lines though.

[Gilberreke]

I really don't know if I've ever seen anything else along these lines though.

Hehe, it's our obligation then to provide that service to the world? XD

Actually, I've tried to design a game in this vein, but I failed. Until I can really make what Zach does click in my head, I can't really grasp how you go about designing something like this.

I do wonder if you can combine the tightness of a Zachtronics design, with a resource gathering game like Minecraft. The way he structures the puzzles, he can really force you to use limited materials. I fear that with any resource gathering game, you'll just give up and grind out the resources to make the puzzle easier. Compare with BTW, where you attempted part of this exercise: you can lock certain things behind a tech tree and force people to create designs without the super ubiquitous Block Dispenser of the past (I remember machines being 98% BD), but any more linear than the BTW tech tree and you start getting into railroaded territory, at which point you'd better just create a puzzle game. I feel like all the balancing of BTW goes towards trying to perfectly sit in that middle point sweet spot and it works, but BTW, on the other hand, has neither the tightness of Zach's puzzles, nor the complete expressiveness of vanilla Minecraft when you just get into it. Maybe it's impossible to get your cake and eat it too in this case?

EDIT: any links to the logic gates? I'm interested.

[FlowerChild]

EDIT: any links to the logic gates? I'm interested.

If you check the steam forums for Infinifactory, there are a few threads devoted to them. I don't think the game has any official forums, so that seems to be the past place to go for info right now.

[Gilberreke]

Actually, I want to try to do all logic gates by myself before I look at existing designs. This could be a cool challenge to lengthen the game a bit.

Anyway, on-topic, I think I'm going to thoroughly go over some of Zach's stuff, look at BTW again with fresh eyes, buy Great Permutator and experiment a little. Infinifactory inspired the hell out of me. I'm also going to look for signs of similar designs in other games out there. Especially the puzzler space is largely unknown to me, maybe there's gems there that I don't know of.

[devak]

I've yet to see the point in making a clock, since i finished the game without needing overly complex machines. Now i don't really feel the incentive to go back and try to beat the older levels.

However, i did notice you could use the floater block to create floating plateaus and i used it quite often.

As to the Spatial Automation games... Spacechem allows instructions and the system is a slave to that. Infinifactory has no instructions: just blocks. and the instructions are made via the rules of the game, not as tiles. The instructions are essentially emergent.

As to resources and puzzles: I do think it's a case of mutual exclusivity. The "resource" you limit in Infinifactory is space, and cycles. But in Better than Wolves, you optimize to limit resources. Whether that's cost (saving hard-to-get materials), space (saving amount of materials), height (for water) doesn't really matter. This optimization, however, is chosen. Sometimes a more expensive block (e.g. BD) can save a lot of resources (e.g. pistons). What you optimize for is dependent on what you have. In Infinifactory, the optimization is already set. The need to optimize is also dependent almost entirely on the presence of resources and so the difficulty level is dependent on resources.

So maybe unless you build small minecraft islands with a given set of resources, you can recreate Infinifactory. The charm of minecraft however is it's infinite nature.


As a TLDR: the very focus of the puzzle is different between BTW and Infinifactory.

[FlowerChild]

I've yet to see the point in making a clock, since i finished the game without needing overly complex machines. Now i don't really feel the incentive to go back and try to beat the older levels.

Me neither, but I have found it effective for bailing you out when you mess up a design. I find a lot of the puzzle elements essentially revolve around how to fit a number of devices into a compact space to operate on a single part of a final product.

The one time I used it:

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I ran into it with the satellite level (which I think is actually the peak of the difficulty in the game and it occurs at level 5) as when it came to attaching the last top block of the central column to the panels and bottom portion of the central column I had created as a separate piece in a different part of my machine, I was having a hard time getting the necessary welders into place while also having a sensor and pusher to get it out of there again. I could however just put in a pusher, hook that up to a delay (which was essentially a triggered clock), and have that top part trigger a sensor to trigger the delay while in mid air as it fell into place to be welded.

There are many alternate approaches there mind you. After putting aside the game, a couple of hours later I realized that instead I could use a lifter to raise the bottom part into place instead, which freed up some more useable space (since I didn't have to conveyor it into the welding area, leaving an entire other side open for blocks) around the assembly so I could get both the pusher and sensor in there.

But again, that was all based on me screwing up a design in the first place, but it offered me a way to bail it out without ripping up a large portion or all of it.

I think they may also be useful when playing the levels with increased input rates, as I get the impression that the block density may be too high to effectively separate otherwise.

As to the Spatial Automation games... Spacechem allows instructions and the system is a slave to that. Infinifactory has no instructions: just blocks. and the instructions are made via the rules of the game, not as tiles. The instructions are essentially emergent.

Well...not entirely. There's the intro tutorial level which do serve as a form of instructions, and there are the pictograms scattered about that show you how new blocs work. The "instructions" are minimal and unobtrusive, and I like the way they were done, but they are still there.

[MrLemon]

Well...not entirely. There's the intro tutorial level which do serve as a form of instructions, and there are the pictograms scattered about that show you how new blocs work. The "instructions" are minimal and unobtrusive, and I like the way they were done, but they are still there.

I think devak is talking about the instructions you give to the waldos, not the instructions the game gives to you. (Which seems to be what you're talking about?)

[FlowerChild]

Ah sorry, you are right, and as usual I need to remind myself not to post before my first cup of coffee :)

[devak]

Ah sorry, you are right, and as usual I need to remind myself not to post before my first cup of coffee :)

Yea :).

Re: clocks

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Funny that you mention the satellite level. I just used clocks. Set a welder on a piston, put the piston on a clock. That way, you can weld the satellite in two goes: i weld the top two parts together. Insert bottom cube, insert solar panels, insert top cube. By setting the clocks just right (after 20 tries), you can "continuously weld" solar panels yet have it separate after every 3rd block. Thus, i removed the need to move unwieldy 3-long solar panels, and made the complex welding of the center block just one weld action. The footprint cost of the clocks and pushers is far less than the normally complex solution of pre-fab solar panels to the body or other combinations of parts.

But yea, i feel like Infinifactory just pushed into a never-before-explored territory.