Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Stormweaver
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

FlowerChild wrote:Be sure to let me know the results, as I've tried to balance it so the travel to the Mun and back with reentry isn't really viable until you have the larger heat shield :)

I suspect it's probably doable if you *really* work at it, but I don't want it to be easy enough that it's the path of least resistance. At tech level 5 I'd like players to be focused on getting a Kerbil into orbit, and starting to send probes to the Mun to take orbital readings, whereas tech level 6 is all about working your way up to Mun landings.

One other thing to keep in mind is that while you could conceivably launch manned missions with the Mk1 to the Mun, space suits are only unlocked with the Mk1-2 (which is another reason I put that space suit tech progression thing in there to act as a gateway), so your science return will be pretty crappy given you won't be able to collect EVA reports and surface samples.
That Mk1-2 >.> 60 science away, and it's starting to feel really far >.<

The seismometer is biome-sensitive, right? If it isn't, I'm going to be pulling my hair out as to what obvious science I've missed :p
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FlowerChild
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Stormweaver wrote: The seismometer is biome-sensitive, right? If it isn't, I'm going to be pulling my hair out as to what obvious science I've missed :p
Nope, the only biome sensitive surface experiment I've left in place are surface samples, with the intent of making that the thing to do at tech level 7 once you get rovers.

Doing the seismometer that way would just encourage multiple landings on the same body in different places which would get rather old.

If you've run into a dead-end, please post a screenshot of what tech you've unlocked as I'm still working on the balance of tech level 6, and that would be helpful.

Also, if you dead end there, probing Minmus is always an option.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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FlowerChild wrote:
Stormweaver wrote: The seismometer is biome-sensitive, right? If it isn't, I'm going to be pulling my hair out as to what obvious science I've missed :p
Nope, the only biome sensitive surface experiment I've left in place are surface samples, with the intent of making that the thing to do at tech level 7 once you get rovers.

Doing the seismometer that way would just encourage multiple landings on the same body in different places which would get rather old.

If you've run into a dead-end, please post a screenshot of what tech you've unlocked as I'm still working on the balance of tech level 6, and that would be helpful.

Also, if you dead end there, probing Minmus is always an option.
No need for a screenshot, I've cleared everything in the tech level below the MK1-2.

I've done a little brainstorming, and I think there may be a couple of transmissions I've made that didn't go all the way, and I seem to remember I lost my Mun surface Goo to a power shortage. I think I can settle this - and like you said, there's always minmus.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Oh yeah, it should definitely be easy to hit that man. I'm on tech level 5 right now in my current save game with all nodes purchased, 30 points or so short of buying my first tech level 6 node, I haven't left Kerbin orbit, I still have my low and high orbit goo container experiments to do, and I started this save at a point when the science return for crew reports is lower than what it currently is, so I'm actually short points I should have :P

Also, not sure if you noticed, but the crew reports are biome sensitive at low orbit, the same as the gravioli detector, except it also gets return from other zones as well. You should get an absolutely huge science return for putting your first man in orbit around Kerbin as a result.

It really sounds like you missed a major source of science somewhere, so maybe that's it.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by PatriotBob »

FlowerChild wrote:Also, not sure if you noticed, but the crew reports are biome sensitive at low orbit, the same as the gravioli detector, except it also gets return from other zones as well.
O.o
*Immediately stops Mun science to put kerbals in low orbit again*
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Welp, 10 more science testing out the changes to the Mk-1. I had a quick polar orbit to see if there was any grav scans or crew reports I missed (Nope), realized I had enough fuel to mess around, went up to 250km (had that one too) and reentered at 30km with a short burn just above the danger zone. Pod acted as it should, and electric charge ran out at 800m; which felt around right. And I finally recovered an orbiting craft >.<

Pretty sure I've got two biomes to use the nosecone in, and another mun landing to complete the seisometer and grab a goo from, and that should be me back on track.

There's a slight annoyance for people with existing saves; the tech tree still shows the winglets at T2 (and if you've bought aerodynamics already, it'll show it there, but unpurchased somehow) but on a new save it's presumably where it should be. I guess it's some form of save file weirdness.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Wait a second dude, are you playing a save here from a previous version (previous to the one a couple of days ago) where you're talking about getting locked at tech 5?

If so, yes, your point totals will be completely borked, and I can't do anything about that. As I said in the release notes, those saves should no longer be considered compatible.

What you're describing just doesn't make much sense with a save from the current release man, as there's a huge science point surplus between tech levels 5 & 6 (where you get the mk1-2), without even leaving Kerbin orbit, whereas you already seem to be largely tapping the Mun.
Stormweaver wrote:There's a slight annoyance for people with existing saves; the tech tree still shows the winglets at T2 (and if you've bought aerodynamics already, it'll show it there, but unpurchased somehow) but on a new save it's presumably where it should be. I guess it's some form of save file weirdness.
Yup, that's known. Any changes to the tech tree I make are not reflected in previously unlocked nodes as they get stored to your save file, rather than referencing the actual tech tree.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Wait, no, nm, I'm at a completely different point in the tech tree from where I thought I was. Stand by, will test further. What you're saying may indeed make sense :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

nah, new save.

I'll probably start fresh tommorow with a bit more foreknowledge and work my way through again (with pen and paper), to see if I get a similar progression. For now, I'm kinda annoyed at forgetting to stick a seismometer on my minmus probe, since that's probably worth more science than all the temp, grav and pressure readings combined :3

Till then, it's late. Gonna get some sleep.
Last edited by Stormweaver on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Yeah, it looks like the science values on the Mun are a bit low at present due to some last minute changes I made before that release on Friday. Sorry about that man, the move up from tech level 5 to 6 is still an area I'm actively balancing.

And my apologies for not cluing into what you were saying sooner. I blame the ungodly number of first manned orbit missions I've launched over the past couple of days trying to find that problem with the mk1 pod heatshield for frying my brain :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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FlowerChild wrote:Yeah, it looks like the science values on the Mun are a bit low at present due to some last minute changes I made before that release on Friday. Sorry about that man, the move up from tech level 5 to 6 is still an area I'm actively balancing.

And my apologies for not cluing into what you were saying sooner. I blame the ungodly number of first manned orbit missions I've launched over the past couple of days trying to find that problem with the mk1 pod heatshield for frying my brain :)
Don't worry about it ^.^ It's still an amazingly smooth experience given what you've had to work with and around. Tying in deadly reentry and the jet parts have really given it some polish. Be proud man. Proud.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Stormweaver wrote:Be proud man. Proud.
Thank you sir :)

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good about it overall. Will feel even better when I can call this first past done ;)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by kaspermwh »

I've unlocked everything in tier 4 and i'm at 89 science points with the latest income being >18km Goo collect. Is there something giving 1 point?
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Larmantine »

kaspermwh wrote:I've unlocked everything in tier 4 and i'm at 89 science points with the latest income being >18km Goo collect. Is there something giving 1 point?
Try recovering your vehicles. It should give you that little tiny bit you require.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by jorgebonafe »

I found myself a bit stuck in the tech tree. I got General Rocketry before I got Stability, which turned out to be a mistake. To get enough altitude to use the gravioli detector without the ability to make course corrections seemed impossible (or maybe that's because I'm a noob), my rocket would most of the time tilt and eventually go down. Also, without being able to decouple empty tanks, my rocket was way too heavy by the second stage, I couldn't gain more altitude.

So, I did something that... well... considering the overall feel of the game so far, it seemed ok... I used the smaller solid fuel tanks as improvised decouplers (when they overheat they explode without damaging the tank above), and that got me high enough to get some more science...

I wonder if this is an exploit or just something I was expected to do anyway... Any thoughts?
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

So, I'm doing my second playthrough with pen and paper to make sure that I don't miss anything dumb.

and I'm doing pretty well so far. I'm a little irritated by the fact that you don't get to see any decimal points of science you've collected outside of the transmission or recovery screens though, as I'm missing up to 1.1 science points somewhere :s not something you'd notice if you're not writing everything down, but it's actually left me at 44 and 89 science a few times where there's science to be bought, which is irritating.

For specifics, it came about from the 16.8 science you gain from the 'flying' and 'upper atmosphere' Temperature and pressure readings, with a much later second suborbital recovery and it's 1.3 science. Don't know if there's some rounding going on there or w/e, just thought you'd like to be aware of it.

And jorge; yeah, it's kinda exploity. If you make a balanced rocket out of a liquid fuel tank and two pairs of small boosters with two stages (liquid fuel and two boosters, then two more boosters) and use the throttle to keep your speed around 200m/s below 15k and then as fast as overheating allows afterwards, you should hit 70k easily; or at least once in 3 attempts. You can improve stability by putting everything as low as possible on the rocket, as an even slightly top-heavy one will fall over without fins.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by jorgebonafe »

Stormweaver wrote:If you make a balanced rocket out of a liquid fuel tank and two pairs of small boosters with two stages (liquid fuel and two boosters, then two more boosters)
Just so you get an idea of how much of a noob I am, I don't understand at all the design you just described :P
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

jorgebonafe wrote:
Stormweaver wrote:If you make a balanced rocket out of a liquid fuel tank and two pairs of small boosters with two stages (liquid fuel and two boosters, then two more boosters)
Just so you get an idea of how much of a noob I am, I don't understand at all the design you just described :P
Ah. Build a little rocket with a probe core at the top, a liquid fuel tank beneath it, and a liquid engine below that. The Click the symmetry button to get a symmetry of 2, and place a solid booster on the side of the rocket, near the bottom. Then just put another on the same way and...theres you goes. Also known as the 'I'm going shopping in a mo' and don't have time to get you a screenshot, sorry' Rocket design.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by jorgebonafe »

Stormweaver wrote:Ah. Build a little rocket with a probe core at the top, a liquid fuel tank beneath it, and a liquid engine below that. The Click the symmetry button to get a symmetry of 2, and place a solid booster on the side of the rocket, near the bottom. Then just put another on the same way and...theres you goes. Also known as the 'I'm going shopping in a mo' and don't have time to get you a screenshot, sorry' Rocket design.
lol
Thanks for explaining :) I get it now
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Stormweaver wrote:So, I'm doing my second playthrough with pen and paper to make sure that I don't miss anything dumb.
I'd really advise staying away from the Mun until I get these tweaked values out to you guys. I'll try to get that done ASAP and put out a release for it, as I think you are right in that it's a serious blockage in the current tech tree.

If you want to progress beyond that point, I'd suggest making a backup of your save before you do so, so you can revert to it with the next version.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

FlowerChild wrote:I'd really advise staying away from the Mun until I get these tweaked values out to you guys. I'll try to get that done ASAP and put out a release for it, as I think you are right in that it's a serious blockage in the current tech tree.

If you want to progress beyond that point, I'd suggest making a backup of your save before you do so, so you can revert to it with the next version.
Ah. So I'm looking through my notes and making plans for my third playthrough... :p

But seriously, this run has taught me a lot - how to get into a easy polar orbit around the Mun, how to not waste the last few drops of fuel in your orbiting stage before going to the Mun without having to guessimate when to start burning, why using a high eccentric orbit around the Mun for planning your return is a really, really bad idea and finally; where the Badlands actually bloody are. Kinda looking forward to going again with a bit more experience.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by E.B. Farnham »

I was thinking the Mun rewards were a tad low at 10 pts per biome for crew reports. I think I may be starting a new game once you readjust those values. Good, there's things I want to do better the next time around.

So I just completed my attempt at a 1 man Mk1 Pod Mun Orbit. It took 5 hours and 5 versions of ever increasing rocket size. The one that finally did it was this monstrosity. It has 34 engines, anymore fuel and I loose Delta V instead of gaining it, anymore engines and it shakes apart on launch.
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The Mark 5
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The Munar transit portion of the Mk 5
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The problem is power, as in you need a fuck ton of it. The Mark 5 has 42 battery pots which was just about enough. Couple that with needing to fly everything as optimally as possible. Perfect launch and orbit. Perfect intercept with the Mun. Perfect reentry. Any of these are off and your Kerbal dies of lack of life support or fuel.

I managed one Low/High orbit, anymore and you run out of life support. I managed to scan 4 biomes and a high orbit report, anymore and your Kerbal runs out of life support juice.

Reentry required two passes, first at 36km. Which shed about a kilometre per second delta V. Leaving me with about a 120 km apoapsis.

Second pass I re-entered after one skip. I burned off my engine and fuel tank on the second pass (Which had fuel in it, because I forgot to retro with the last of it before hitting the atmosphere, oops). I had 360 power left before separating the command pod. Though I accidentally sent a crew report twice, wasting some juice. Also I think there might be something up with octo strut's ability to withstand heat. I feel I should have burned them off but didn't, not sure though.
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Munar orbit and return plot
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Bill touched down safe on the plains. Hero and fool.
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It was a tough challenge which required a lot of work. On the bright side I now have a launch vehicle which has serious legs in terms of lift capacity, even if it handles like a brick. It has a very very fat ass. It's very easy to flip it out while launching if you over-turn at all.
All in all, I enjoyed the challenge a great deal and damn was it great to succeed at it. Though in the time I spent figuring it out and testing different methods and ships I could have gotten a lot more science with probes, plus there was a lot of trial and error which many would find frustrating. One wrong move anywhere along the line and Bill died. Personally I loved it and I learned a lot about reentry from the Mun which will serve me well later when the manned landings begin.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Icy started a new playthrough with the new release and with everything he picked up in the first series!



It's good stuff, and I'd like to thank him for doing this as watching his progress is helping me a great deal in balancing this thing :)
Stormweaver wrote: But seriously, this run has taught me a lot - how to get into a easy polar orbit around the Mun, how to not waste the last few drops of fuel in your orbiting stage before going to the Mun without having to guessimate when to start burning, why using a high eccentric orbit around the Mun for planning your return is a really, really bad idea and finally; where the Badlands actually bloody are. Kinda looking forward to going again with a bit more experience.
Yeah, the Badlands are by far the most difficult Kerbin biome to find as there's no visible indication of where they are. All the others are fairly easy to recognize from the texture. I've actually been trying to balance so that hitting them is entirely optional and just provides a bit of a bonus rather than making them a requirement to advance.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by E.B. Farnham »

Stormweaver wrote:
But seriously, this run has taught me a lot - how to get into a easy polar orbit around the Mun, how to not waste the last few drops of fuel in your orbiting stage before going to the Mun without having to guessimate when to start burning.....
A good way of working out burns is to burn your engine well before the node to get the estimated burn time and then burn half of that before the node and half after. You want your median burn time to rest on the node. So if it's a 2 minute burn, burn one minute before the node and one minute after. Also if possible always burn on the apoapsis or periapsis, you'll get the most efficient delta v to fuel burned ratio at those points.

Other tips include, in the VAB holding shift and rotating a part will rotate it by smaller increments. Chase camera is very useful for docking as the orientation of your RCS will always be the same. I.e. the I key will always fire your upper RCS as you view it on screen. Helps with not getting confused as to which thrusters to fire. Always make sure in an SSTO design that your fuel tanks are in line laterally with your center of mass, then you don't have to worry about your flight characteristics changing as you burn fuel. Also a center of lift a bit behind your C.O.M. helps prevent it flipping out when you switch to rockets from jets and pull up sharply.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by PatriotBob »

E.B. Farnham wrote:A good way of working out burns is to burn your engine well before the node to get the estimated burn time and then burn half of that before the node and half after. You want your median burn time to rest on the node. So if it's a 2 minute burn, burn one minute before the node and one minute after. Also if possible always burn on the apoapsis or periapsis, you'll get the most efficient delta v to fuel burned ratio at those points.
I played my first go with BTSM as intended. But I will say that I will be adding Kerbal Alarm Clock and Kerbal Engineer back next go around. Kerbal Engineer is too useful for not having to completely wing it as far as estimating stage delta-v goes. And it's not exactly exploity information as there is no way in hell we'd put a rocket in space w/o knowing it. And it's completely available currently, I just have to spend a few min with pen and paper to figure it out by hand.

Although I will admit that I worked out the math to determine burn times by hand so I don't have to guess anymore as the "estimated burn time" provided in game is near useless at times.
FlowerChild wrote:Icy started a new playthrough with the new release and with everything he picked up in the first series!
I haven't watched it yet, but are you saying he actually might make use of the control surfaces instead of trying to turn a rocket with hopes and dreams? :P
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