Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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FlowerChild
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Larmantine wrote: Although I am a little afraid of the Deadly Reentry. But so too I was afraid of Hardcore Buckets. Fear turned into joy. Hope that this will be the same case here.
On this note: it seriously helps to bring things together man, and makes the difference between launching something to attain orbit, and making something recoverable quite distinct.

I usually launch them now as entirely separate missions, say for example a probe at tech 4 to obtain a polar orbit with a Gravioli Detector and a transmitter loaded with batteries, then another one with a couple of goo canisters like pictured above that I design to have a lightweight core that can survive reentry. This serves to increase gameplay diversity in presenting you with differing design challenges depending on the mission. It's similar to what I said in a previous post about the early manned missions with crappy cockpits, and plays nicely off of it as you can launch a manned flight with canisters first to cover the lower and upper atmosphere, then launch a recoverable probe to do low and high orbit with another two. All told, that turns what might have previously been a single rocket design and mission at tech level 4, into 3 distinct design challenges with diverse gameplay in each.

I find it also presents some real choices as to how to proceed. Do I try to make a recoverable core, or do I start scouting out the Mun to progress? Both are somewhat challenging tasks for different reasons, and I've left enough wiggle room in the science values so that you could go either route.

Anways, don't be too afraid of it man. Yes, it's a bit rough to get used to if you've played a lot of KSP in the past without having to worry about such things, but IMO it results in a much MUCH richer gameplay experience.
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Sarudak
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

I'm excited! :D
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Larmantine »

FlowerChild wrote: snipitty snip snip
Now that you explained it it makes much more sense to me, and made me even more excited about this. The same design for probes was getting somewhat repetitive and made the whole science-acquiring-thing a bit of a grinder.

The game itself has so much potential in it, but I don't really know if Squad is moving it in the right direction atm. I sincerely hope that this won't turn out as vMC did.

Edit: snip
weldaSB wrote:Edit: grammer
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Hehe...out of curiosity, and because I was having doubts as to whether the SAS module was really required at tech level 4, I just launched a similar probe and tried to pilot it manually on reentry.

I pulled it off, but I really wouldn't recommend it, and the SAS is definitely going to stay at tech 4 ;)

I like that bit a lot actually, because SAS was falling under "nice to have" previously, but wasn't actually something I felt compelled to put on many rocket designs. In the case of reentry stages though, it's pretty much a requirement unless you want your blood pressure to skyrocket :)

A little trick I learned in the process: after reentry I decided to burn off my remaining RCS fuel to decrease my weight on landing. What I noticed is that I could shave off about 1 m/s off my landing speed if I saved a bit of fuel for the landing itself while the parachute was deployed.

Might be a handy thing to remember in the future if the weight of your landing stages is ever borderline with regards to your parachute's ability to slow them down, as mine tend to be :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Just shared my tech 6 Munar Orbiter on the IRC channel, so I figured I'd pass it along here too:
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Three Kerbals orbited the Mun in this thing earlier today and successfully returned to Kerbin with it, reentry (and a very tense one) included. Definitely one of my most satisfying KSP missions to date, and was another borderline arm-pumping moment for me.

I guess I should also mention that I have three more floating in space somewhere between the Mun and Kerbin from a previous mission that ran out of juice on the way home :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

And Icy puts out the first BTSM vid ever! WOOT! :)



I think he amply demonstrates that many KSP players do not realize rocket balance is a thing ;)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Larmantine »

FlowerChild wrote:And Icy puts out the first BTSM vid ever! WOOT! :)
I think he amply demonstrates that many KSP players do not realize rocket balance is a thing ;)
Wow... I felt so superior with my balancing knowledge in watching the video, mwahahahaa. I was like this also once, but frankly, it was even more fun to build ridiculous rockets and watch then go boom. :)
weldaSB wrote:Edit: grammer
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Larmantine »

Sorry for the bump, but there are some things that I'd like to say.

I tried Vanilla with a bunch of mods installed to provide a deeper gamepley (kethane, remote tech, deadly reentry and ioncross life support), and here is how it turned out,

Flowerchild, you were absolutely right, the Deadly Reentry is totally awesome, and it adds a ton of new experience. The burning and exploding and planning ahead are awesome.

So I got a couple of tech nodes, then I was on a mission to Minmus to get science, with a bunch of goo canisters and a laboratory with me. I was constantly sending data back to Kerbin but suddenly I couldn't because I was out of communication range because I did not have any communication satellite networks yet (Remote tech), so I was a little bit mad that I wont be able to get science in space. Somehow landed on Minmus, packed my ship with reports from the surface, did some math, so I should have about 400 science to bring home from Minmus. Happy I ventured back with the knowledge that I have enough fuel to minimize the speed before entering the atmosphere. But I had very little electric charge left. Why does that matter you ask? Life support, my ship was almost full of CO2 so I needed to activate the scrubbers to clear it out. So i wasted all my fuel trying to get electricity to survive. When finally I was about to enter Kerbin's atmosphere I noticed that I'm going superfast, like 2-3km/s or even faster, don't remember now. First I was like "meh i has heat shields", then I noticed that my oxygen tanks blew off, but i didn't need them anyway at that point. A few seconds after i deployed my shutes, and BAM! "Crew member Jebediah Kerman died of G-force damage." And the whole red thing just exploded, before it could hit the ground. I cried and laughed at same time, because I just lost 400 science but the way that whole thing burned up/exploded was just too perfect.

So yeah, definitely an experience, and with your awesome Tech tree It would be even better.


I also looked up into KSP forums and there was this balanced tech tree that everyone seemed so happy about of a guy named Yargnit. The first thing that I wanted to know was where are the probes and pods located into the TT. Guess what was at the start. The guy even wrote a reply in the thread:
I just feel like it's not 'Kerbal' if you don't start your 1st mission with Jeb in the cockpit.


I don't even... somehow this made me sad, because the whole Kerbalism thing is just wasting a ton of great experience.
weldaSB wrote:Edit: grammer
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Icy just put out a new BTSM LP, and I think you guys might find it particularly interesting given he's playing an advanced copy of the next release in it ;)

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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Larmantine wrote:I also looked up into KSP forums and there was this balanced tech tree that everyone seemed so happy about of a guy named Yargnit. The first thing that I wanted to know was where are the probes and pods located into the TT. Guess what was at the start. The guy even wrote a reply in the thread:
Yeah, I pointed that one out in the other KSP thread, including that particular quote. Seeing that comment was one of my final "ok...fuck this" moments in deciding to work on BTSM ;)

With regards to Deadly Reentry: were you playing with default values? Because if so, it's exceedingly hard to actually burn up on reentry with them. I've been tweaking the values to make things quite a bit more difficult than that, and if you check the DR thread, it looks like my tweaks are going to be making it into DR itself, as it's really not balanced for vanilla right now, as it's far too easy to survive even an unshielded reentry.

So yeah man, if you were burning up with just that, you're in for some pain :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Larmantine »

FlowerChild wrote:
Larmantine wrote:I also looked up into KSP forums and there was this balanced tech tree that everyone seemed so happy about of a guy named Yargnit. The first thing that I wanted to know was where are the probes and pods located into the TT. Guess what was at the start. The guy even wrote a reply in the thread:
Yeah, I pointed that one out in the other KSP thread, including that particular quote. Seeing that comment was one of my final "ok...fuck this" moments in deciding to work on BTSM ;)

With regards to Deadly Reentry: were you playing with default values? Because if so, it's exceedingly hard to actually burn up on reentry with them. I've been tweaking the values to make things quite a bit more difficult than that, and if you check the DR thread, it looks like my tweaks are going to be making it into DR itself, as it's really not balanced for vanilla right now, as it's far too easy to survive even an unshielded reentry.

So yeah man, if you were burning up with just that, you're in for some pain :)
I didn't change anything. My upper stage was loaded with like 24 batteries and 4 oxygen tanks which also weigh a ton and the laboratory too. So I think that was because of a very steep trajectory and a large amount of mass.
weldaSB wrote:Edit: grammer
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Larmantine wrote:I didn't change anything. My upper stage was loaded with like 24 batteries and 4 oxygen tanks which also weigh a ton and the laboratory too. So I think that was because of a very steep trajectory and a large amount of mass.
Yeah, coming in steep will definitely get you killed.

With stock Deadly Reentry values, I couldn't get myself to burn up no matter how hard I tried :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by PatriotBob »

FlowerChild wrote:
Larmantine wrote:I didn't change anything. My upper stage was loaded with like 24 batteries and 4 oxygen tanks which also weigh a ton and the laboratory too. So I think that was because of a very steep trajectory and a large amount of mass.
Yeah, coming in steep will definitely get you killed.

With stock Deadly Reentry values, I couldn't get myself to burn up no matter how hard I tried :)
I think my only successful Deadly Reentry death was Mun free return that fired me straight at the planet. So aside from doing that, it's kinda forgiving.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Mason11987 »

FlowerChild wrote:And Icy puts out the first BTSM vid ever! WOOT! :)



I think he amply demonstrates that many KSP players do not realize rocket balance is a thing ;)
Jealous. Can't wait to try it out.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Mason11987 wrote:Jealous. Can't wait to try it out.
Well, don't be too jealous. The version Icy has only has the first few tech levels in a state I'm happy with. I sent it along to him so he could start recording this series while I finished up the rest of the stuff I'm working on :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Taleric »

Can't wait for all the supplemental mods to be corrected to enhance the experience even further.

I really need deadly reentry to pulp kerbals into little green balls at 20 gravities. While burning up is serious stuff, if you watch the G hits a normal mission takes there are a ton of design considerations we are being denied.

Also TAC life support needs to be fixed and properly added into the tech so at 2 hours without power a capsule becomes an icy tomb.

I think remote tech 2 delay system is nearly done. For some reason scheduling burns for when the probes are out of contact and feeding them additional commands occasionally is incredibly satisfying.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by TheAnarchitect »

I tried remotetech alongside BTSM this weekend. I couldn't even get it off the ground, because the default antenna you get at tech 1 needs to be extended to be used, and you can't extend it unless you have control of the craft.

Which is pretty much what I was expecting, but I laughed anyway. For everyone else's edification, the two are currently NOT compatible.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Tsugumi Henduluin »

I finally managed to find the time to try this out for a bit and I'm really liking what I see so far and I'm curious to see where the mod'll go next once you have the time. Though granted, while I enjoy KSP immensely I'm pretty bad at it, so I'm not entirely sure what my experience is worth >.>

Anyhow, quick question if I may. Did a search through every page but I haven't seen it mentioned, but in my game the amount of science value that the UI says I will get for transmitting results, often does not reflect the experiments' actual worth. It's often closer to 50% or even 33%. Is that just a part of the UI that hasn't been addressed, or did I mess up somewhere?
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Battlecat »

This looks amazing FC. I'm looking forward to getting a chance to try the next release that Icy has previewed.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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TheAnarchitect wrote:I tried remotetech alongside BTSM this weekend. I couldn't even get it off the ground, because the default antenna you get at tech 1 needs to be extended to be used, and you can't extend it unless you have control of the craft.

Which is pretty much what I was expecting, but I laughed anyway. For everyone else's edification, the two are currently NOT compatible.
Yeah it's my not-so-secret hope that I can couple BTSM with FAR, RemoteTech2 and Life Support (IonCross). This make things soooo much more interesting.

And maybe Kethane...
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Tsugumi Henduluin wrote: Anyhow, quick question if I may. Did a search through every page but I haven't seen it mentioned, but in my game the amount of science value that the UI says I will get for transmitting results, often does not reflect the experiments' actual worth. It's often closer to 50% or even 33%. Is that just a part of the UI that hasn't been addressed, or did I mess up somewhere?
That's actually a vanilla bug that Squad already knows about. They're saying it will be corrected in .23.

You can only really trust the values that scroll by at the top left of the screen that say how much science you've really collected.
PatriotBob wrote: Yeah it's my not-so-secret hope that I can couple BTSM with FAR, RemoteTech2 and Life Support (IonCross). This make things soooo much more interesting.

And maybe Kethane...
Well, let's just say that the next release has kind of mutated into quite the beast on me despite myself. None of the above are integrated (Deadly Reentry is the only required mod so far), but I've coded a number of factors myself into BTSM that should keep things interesting, namely a rudimentary life support system based on electricity (since that's the primary bottleneck resource in this tech tree).

Frankly, I'm a little reluctant to start integrating other mods as the KSP modding scene is a bit of a mess at present. Various mods scattered over different versions, with their authors MIA, bugs aplenty with no real API documentation or access to the source code to help resolve them (meaning they tend to linger longer than they probably should), etc.

Given that, creating additional dependencies between BTSM and other mods just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. I used Deadly Reentry as a test case as I thought it was the kind of functionality that would have the biggest impact on BTSM and was really something I didn't want to get into coding myself, and the current author/maintainer is a super cool guy that's been extremely helpful. But even then, the amount of work involved to get things right with it has been extreme, when I was hoping it would be a simple process.

So, to me, I think I'll be much more likely to create my own functionality than to make other mods required in the future. Like already I'm considering adding some functionality in the future to limit antenna range based on antenna type to serve as an additional bottleneck in the tech tree. Obviously, that's not RemoteTech, but rather a small subset of a similar kind of functionality that I think will have the most direct impact on the career mode progression.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by PatriotBob »

FlowerChild wrote:So, to me, I think I'll be much more likely to create my own functionality than to make other mods required in the future.
I tried to be specific in my phrasing to make sure it didn't sound like a request. :)
I don't think you need to have life support with resources for Food, Water, Waste, Oxygen, Jello, etc... it just is more bars to convey the same concept.

The only thing I'm honestly worried about is Ferram Aerospace Research because of the much needed change to the aerodynamics. The default aerodynamic model is quite... interesting. (See videos of wiggler space planes and space planes flying all the way to Duna just on the velocity achieved with air breathing engines)

I hadn't read any mention of FAR yet, so I figured it worth the mentioning. And when you start getting into space planes it makes a substantial difference. I know that's still quite a ways off as far as BTSM is concerned.
But the more you know. *Cue music*
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Yeah, FAR is still one I have my eye on to be sure. It is very well maintained and the author seems to be very quick to address bugs as well.

However, it would represent a significant balance pass (and a half) for me so I'm definitely going to hold back on that until after I finalize BTW.

And no offense was taken man. I've mentioned possibly making the mods you mentioned required in the past, so was just making a general statement on what I've learned since :)

Also, Icy's 2nd episode of the next release of BTSM is up!



Within, he most notably doesn't realize control surfaces are a very nice thing to have, in a way that I will be sure to remind him of for months to come ;)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by BinoAl »

I just realized how close BTSM is to BDSM...
Flower, you sly dog, you.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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BinoAl wrote:I just realized how close BTSM is to BDSM...
Errrr...you realize everyone else got that gag about 10 seconds after hearing it, right? :)
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