Balance Difficulty vs. Tedium

[256]

I'm a huge fan of roguelikes, and I love the similar level of difficulty and consequence that BTW adds to the game, but I feel that there are a few places where the balance, though it achieves a perfect difficulty level, results in undesirable gameplay.

1. Hardcore Hunger: Hunger has been almost perfectly balanced to a fine edge, except that the penalties for extreme hunger are too harsh. The movement penalties are good and flavourful. The damage penalties are the problem. They are so severe that, once a player reaches the "Famished" level it is nearly impossible to kill an animal (especially when combined with the movement penalties). More importantly, the final levels of hunger proceed too slowly. When I reach famished without food, I find myself in a situation where I either need to find some mushrooms or wait for myself to starve. Often, I end up drowning myself to avoid the lengthy wait for starvation. It would be better if attacks still did full damage when hungry, but were balanced by causing more hunger themselves.

2. Hardcore Health: Similarly, the punishments for low health are too harsh. Because they both prevent the player from doing any substantial damage and from fleeing at a reasonable speed, the result is that the player may as well be dead upon reaching "Injured" status while in combat. My suggestion would be keeping the damage reduction, but removing the movement penalties. This would allow players to flee a combat that was going poorly and provide more barely-escaped-death situations, which are great gameplay. In terms of realism, this could be explained by adrenaline, and could be balanced by double or tripled hunger cost for movement while hurt.

3. Hardcore Axe: This is a pretty minor thing, but wood punching is just so tedious. I wouldn't even bring it up except that it's the very first experience a player has with BTW. I think it would be nice to reintroduce the wooden axe, maybe making it so that it still produces planks, not logs, but substantially faster than punching does. It would be great if it could chop 10 planks before breaking (the exact number required for two wooden picks).

[lifeiwater]

*snip*

[FlowerChild]

I will say that I'm not even in disagreement with your points.

Keep in mind the following:

-A few releases ago, I mentioned I had maxed out the difficulty of the early game, and things would likely only get easier from there.

-Last release I changed the axe recipe so that now the choice between punching 19 logs (stone pick first) or 14 (axe first) is a very real one. Personally, I always opt for the 14.

Now, MC had a severe problem with *lack*of difficulty. So, what I did is kept pushing in the opposite direction until I thought to myself "yup, this is difficult enough". Now I'm gently nudging in the opposite direction until it hits the sweet spot.

So dude, seriously, whomever you are, you don't need to create a temp account to voice such concerns. I'm on it, and I don't think I've ever banned anyone yet for a well reasoned critique.

[256]

Thanks for the reply. And not a temp account. "256" is the handle I've used everywhere online since the BBS days.

[TheAnarchitect]

I'll chime in and say I'm really looking forward to only punching 14 logs. The 19 I had to punch previously would give me serious joint pain every time, and made me find new and interesting ways to hold down a mouse button. But thanks for saving me 5 planks of work first thing after dying.

That aside, the most important thing I see in that post is "I drown myself to speed things up" bit. Anytime the player finds dying a better solution than clawing for their virtual life is sad day.

[FlowerChild]

Thanks for the reply. And not a temp account. "256" is the handle I've used everywhere online since the BBS days.

Fair enough man, I can appreciate that kind of thing as I've been going by FlowerChild from probably over 20 years now :)

[256]

Also, in response, I'd like to emphasize that I actually don't think the BTW early game is too hard right now. I just think it's too tedious in parts. I'd, in fact, not be against seeing certain parts of it made even harder (I'd love to see some dangerous terrain that required the player to acquire the means (boots) to traverse.

[FlowerChild]

Also, in response, I'd like to emphasize that I actually don't think the BTW early game is too hard right now. I just think it's too tedious in parts. I'd, in fact, not be against seeing certain parts of it made even harder (I'd love to see some dangerous terrain that required the player to acquire the means (boots) to traverse.

Yup, I heard you man :)

The tricky part is that time and difficulty are directly linked in the early game. Hence the need for fine tuning at this point.

[Canopy]

Also, in response, I'd like to emphasize that I actually don't think the BTW early game is too hard right now. I just think it's too tedious in parts. I'd, in fact, not be against seeing certain parts of it made even harder (I'd love to see some dangerous terrain that required the player to acquire the means (boots) to traverse.

Pointy stuff like obsidian or perhaps gravel would make sense, though I wouldn't try to dwell into reality so much, and gravel would be potentially world breaking road-wise. Also, socks vs terrain vs durability. ;)

[FlowerChild]

Also, socks vs terrain vs durability. ;)

Fucker :)

[johnt]

as the server admin on 256's server, I can confirm that he has lots of experience with the early game :)

[warmist]

I would like to add that it's actually very good balancing question. I wanted to write something about this in the FC question "Is BTW the most difficult mod out there" but could not formulate what I am trying to say at that time. So there are a lot of difficult mods, but they make it difficult by adding tedious stuff (either to balance out the easy to get resources or just to artificially drag out the content they are providing) and worst offender is "Greg tech"

As for BTW. I sometimes find myself quiting from BTW just because some thing is to tedious to do at the early game but it's not that bad. I mean i always return maybe after some planing how to do it more efficiently (or watching some cool LP). You could argue that some mechanics (e.g. hardcore spawn) are really bad for unskilled or unlucky players and understand the frustration, but the rewards of finding your base again (or just some path to it) is enough to outweigh the time it takes and the repetition.

[Canopy]

Also, socks vs terrain vs durability. ;)

Fucker :)

I await the restraining order.

[Blazara]

I think the idea of the damage and health penalties is: don't let yourself get that low.

[jkievlan]

More importantly, the final levels of hunger proceed too slowly...Often, I end up drowning myself to avoid the lengthy wait for starvation.

This part in particular strikes a chord with me, and yes, I've found myself doing that quite often. Once my hunger is low enough that I know I won't be able to collect food (short of nearby mushrooms), I almost always just commit suicide rather than sit there waiting for my hunger bar to empty out. It would be awesome if there were realistic (but reasonably difficult) ways to recover from Famished state. At the moment, there really isn't any good way.

I think the idea of the damage and health penalties is: don't let yourself get that low.

Yes; but is it really a good thing that there are points in the game where suicide is the only realistic option? It strikes me that at any point when the player is still alive, there should be good reasons to at least try to survive.

[Sandrew]

Yes; but is it really a good thing that there are points in the game where suicide is the only realistic option? It strikes me that at any point when the player is still alive, there should be good reasons to at least try to survive.

Which points do you mean exactly? I haven't found a single occasion where suicide would have been my only way out.

[johnt]

Definitely if you have very low hunger and there are no animals nearby, it's not worth playing out, IMO. It actually is happening fairly often with hc spawn on my server now. If a player lives for a while in a new area and then dies before getting farming going, the next player that spawns there is basically fucked.

[jkievlan]

Which points do you mean exactly? I haven't found a single occasion where suicide would have been my only way out.

I believe that's been amply explained earlier in the thread. And your suggestion that people shouldn't let their hunger get low in the first place is beside the point. Of course you shouldn't; but *if you do* the consequences of it shouldn't be forced suicide.

[FlowerChild]

as the server admin on 256's server, I can confirm that he has lots of experience with the early game :)

Ah....so we're actually talking about someone that finds starting over tedious because he does it all the time.

In that case, he gets a "haha...noob" :)

[FlowerChild]

Definitely if you have very low hunger and there are no animals nearby, it's not worth playing out, IMO. It actually is happening fairly often with hc spawn on my server now. If a player lives for a while in a new area and then dies before getting farming going, the next player that spawns there is basically fucked.

You're talking about a very specific circumstance man: playing SMP first, and secondly dealing with a previously depleted area. You also seem to be talking about the very specific circumstances where someone has not survived long enough already to have an interest in remaining in the same area and thus don't really care if they die again.

The hunger effects work very well at present, leading to desperate circumstances where people struggle to survive in an increasingly desperate state. I've experienced it myself and absolutely love it. I've also never felt compelled to commit suicide under such circumstances and am always limping along right to the very bitter end trying to find a bit of food.

I'd be very reluctant to water down that general experience to cover your very specific circumstances. If you choose to play with other people on a server, I think that accepting that areas will become depleted of food in a manner that is beyond your control is part of the package, and that certain aspects of the game will become more difficult as a result (meanwhile, many things become MUCH easier in SMP). More people in an area equates to a greater demand on the natural resources.

Also, I think people should keep in mind the "safety valve" that fishing provides to the design. You are only ever 2 sticks, 2 string, and a nugget of iron away from a source of food, no matter how depleted an area has become of animals.

[FlowerChild]

Oh, and to the OP: I was in a celebratory mood when I first read your post, so I didn't want to let it drag me down.

But really, your suggestions are terrible (and unwelcome) and your observations are largely lame. I managed to dig a little something positive out of them last night, but upon rereading now: ummm...no. You really should have chosen a different subject for your first post.