Arg, fuck, kill (ranting at cpw)

[DaveYanakov]

I am so glad we unbanned that guy right now.

[FlowerChild]

...and now cpw admits to the lie himself in a half-hearted apology.

A clarification. @_grum pointed out (jokingly) on forgecraft, that forge violated the ToU. I took his words as a meaningful justification.

...

I should not have done that.

[BinoAl]

Spoiler

Show

[Thalarctia]

And immediatly following that, the Forge fanboys start coming out, even mentioning FC by name, thus highjacking Kahr's thread with more dead horse beating... Lovely. I reported him for flamebaiting, so hopefully a mod will step in to stop it before Kahr's thread turns into a full on flamewar.

Well, for now the situation looks calm, and I don't think that reporting cpw was a good decision. There is no baiting wathsoever in its post.

Yeah, I mean the fanboy posting after him. The post in question has been removed by the mods, so I'm quite happy to see them react to my report, before a bigger flamewar started there. I do not remember the exact words used in the flamebaiting post, but anyone who managed to read it while it was up would without doubt agree with my assesment.

[Sage]

Oh, wow, cpw is so much fun :D now he's admitting that he took as a word a joke made by grum while he was on forgecraft! A joke is enough justification to change how an entire API is distributed, he didn't want to do it.

https://twitter.com/minecraftcpw/status ... 0872422402
https://twitter.com/minecraftcpw/status ... 7135130626

So he did it indeed just for his own satisfaction. I didn't believe it at first, but now, wow...

EDIT: derped by slow ninjas. I should click the next page button. I might be a bit drunk ;)

[Gears]

I'd say this is a small win, but knowing them they aren't going to back down on what they've done. I'm guessing they're just going to keep it as the half-hearted apology without working to right anything.

[FlowerChild]

I'd say this is a small win, but knowing them they aren't going to back down on what they've done. I'm guessing they're just going to keep it as the half-hearted apology without working to right anything.

Hey man, seriously: I'm moving on, one way or another. This is the tail end of BTW and the beginning of RTH.

I felt compelled to voice this shit, and I pushed it to the point where we've now had black and white confirmation that I was right. If anyone in the modding community actually gives a damn other than me, they can take it from here.

I've received next to no support or indication of any kind of moral integrity within the modding community other than from Kahr yesterday in the post he made to his mod thread (and even he seems to be backing down now), so beyond that point, it's on them as to what they end up with.

I count this as a personal victory, and I've been fighting on this and related issues for two years. It's enough.

[Mr_Hosed]

@FC I could go into a long tiatribe about the lack of morals in small communities (Mod Comms for instance) being a reflection of society, etc... but I'd rather scrounge up enough denaro to donate to RTH when you start up on that one ;)

At the ToU, if Mojang had wanted to enforce that aspect of it, they would have done so a LONG time ago. Mods = More Sales for them though.

[Pfilson]

The main thing that strikes me with this being in reaction to Grum "asking" him not to do base edits is that it implies that he thought it was ok to be distributing MC Code.. To me this says a lot about his experience and understanding of professional coding.

FC has known that at any time Mojang could tell him to stop and even take his code, and that while not enforcing it that base class edits were not something that they supported..

Although this has made me curious.. Once BTW is "finalized" would you, maybe working with Kahr, make it a diff style mod? If this is even feasible/worth it.. Thought being that it could avoid any future ToU problems.

[FlowerChild]

The main thing that strikes me with this being in reaction to Grum "asking" him not to do base edits is that it implies that he thought it was ok to be distributing MC Code.. To me this says a lot about his experience and understanding of professional coding.

I'm sure he was aware of the ToU previously. He's not stupid, he's just apparently morally bankrupt.

The deal was that no modder has ever been asked by Mojang to stop doing this. On the contrary, Mojang has facilitated it by creating a section on the official forums for their game to act as a distribution channel for mods that do exactly that, and it's been this way for years. This makes sense of course given there was no practical alternative for modders (such as an official API), and given that we're not at all harming Mojang, and arguably helping their sales. Thus, we've basically been operating at the level of an unspoken agreement that there are certain lines modders don't cross (like redistributing executable versions of MC...which would hurt them), and Mojang has been cool with what we're doing.

I think I'm not alone amongst modders in saying that if Mojang asked me to stop, I simply would, and that would be the end of the story. They never have, and they still haven't. Cpw just tried to make it look like they had.

What cpw did was basically misrepresent something Grum said to him in passing (or as a joke, or as whatever) to represent just such a request from Mojang, thereby convincing people that "ok, Mojang has asked us to stop, so I guess we have to even if it's a big pain in the ass". Since he had no practical reason to do so whatsoever, you can thus only assume he did it to promote his own personal programming ideology, increase modder dependency on Forge, and further solidify his position within the community. Basically, all the same things I've been saying since the beginning of this episode. If someone is willing to repeatedly and blatantly lie like that over a period of weeks and even months in order to further their own goals, and to convince everyone that swallowing a tough pill is beyond their control because it was determined by an external entity, I think it is perfectly reasonable to treat *everything* they say with suspicion, and I certainly don't think it's reasonable to have them in a position of power over the rest of the community. He intentionally tried to make it harder for the entire community to make mods in the way that they want to by basically fabricating the reasoning behind why they should do things his way.

But as I said, I'm largely done with it. I pushed this to the point where we got black and white confirmation of how cpw is really operating, and lacking any tangible support from other modders, that's good enough for me. If they want to do something about it, that's great, and I may even lend a helping hand under such a scenario, but really, from this point forward: it's on them what they let happen.

[logorouge]

If they want to do something about it, that's great, and I may even lend a helping hand under such a scenario, but really, from this point forward: it's on them what they let happen.

They'll be the ones to evolve in this community, so it's only natural that it would be up to them to fight for it. You did more than your share to help anyway. Like in this latest event, if you didn't push the issue like you did, I'm sure no one would have ever known Grum never asked. But that's just one example to show that, even though your getting ready to "leave" and start your own game, you still went for an extra length to show that something is wrong within the community and openly denounce it. So yeah, kudos to you FC.

[FlowerChild]

They'll be the ones to evolve in this community, so it's only natural that it would be up to them to fight for it. You did more than your share to help anyway. Like in this latest event, if you didn't push the issue like you did, I'm sure no one would have ever known Grum never asked. But that's just one example to show that, even though your getting ready to "leave" and start your own game, you still went for an extra length to show that something is wrong within the community and openly denounce it. So yeah, kudos to you FC.

Thanks man. I doubt very many will see it that way, so I appreciate you saying that.

I honestly don't expect anything to really come of this. When you look at the history of how people look at injustice within the MC community, it paints a pretty grim picture:

Technic starts ripping off mods left and right and the creator even publicly tells all modders that have a problem with it to go fuck themselves.... <crickets>

Months to years later Technic largely dominates the MC modding scene after dropping a few bucks in donations to buy off some authors.

Eloraam starts ripping off and gobbling other mods left and right until the other people that were working with her wind up quitting the Forge and/or modding... <crickets>

Months to years later that is often represented as me having ripped off her wind mills, repeatedly trolling her, and never having done anything for the Forge anyways.

LexManos appears in an 8 hour video where he spouts off at length trashing a mod author in an attempt to descredit, justifies ripping off his mod, and repeatedly admits his own involvement through a series of statements expressing intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the code... <crickets>

Months later after not even making a token apology (or any real statement on it), LexManos continues to head the Forge and continues to represent the modding community when dealing with Mojang.

Cpw blatantly lies to modders for weeks and even months in order to convince them that he has no choice in preventing .jar modding and that any .jar mods are ultimately doomed. He is proven in black and white to be lying through his teeth... <crickets>

I suspect we can all see where the pattern is going here. Cpw has even admitted to the lie himself and all we hear are the crickets, and him posting a tweet that he's taking a few weeks break along with a cartoon that he's sick of arguing with people that are wrong on the internet (along with a few Forgeaboos calling me a conspiracy nutter, even though he just stated himself that I'm actually right).

Yeah...

I tweeted a link to this video the other day, but I'll repost it here as it's what keeps running through my head in the aftermath of this:

[logorouge]

Ouch. When you see them all lined up like that, it makes for a pretty damn grim picture indeed. You're one tough bastard to have pulled through all of that. :P

[FlowerChild]

Ouch. When you see them all lined up like that, it makes for a pretty damn grim picture indeed. You're one tough bastard to have pulled through all of that. :P

Hehe...yup :)

And that doesn't even list all the other fucktardery (like the yogaboo invasion, or all the wolfaboo nonsense) that occurred over the course of development (most of which you witnessed yourself along the way). I was just listing the subset of all that which I consider to be representative of blatant injustice.

Like I mentioned somewhere above, I think I needed to express some of that in one last "what the fuck are you guys doing?" hurrah in order for me to move on. Lots of water under the bridge...most of it lousy with floaters ;)

[FlowerChild]

Oh, when you add that I've seen the Yogaboo invasion potrayed as me throwing a hissy fit because they didn't ask for my permission before making a video about my mod, on more than one occasion, I guess you could count that too ;)

[Gears]

Oh, when you add that I've seen the Yogaboo invasion potrayed as me throwing a hissy fit because they didn't ask for my permission before making a video about my mod, on more than one occasion, I guess you could count that too ;)

You've weathered many a storm, captain. Kudos for keeping a constant level of semi-sanity through the years. *raises glass*

[sin6il]

Eloraam starts ripping off and gobbling other mods left and right until the other people that were working with her wind up quitting the Forge and/or modding... <crickets>

Hmm I can't believe that I realize this. I know she made you leave the forge, but I didn't know that she affected the other Forge modders too. Were her pneumatic tubes one of the main reasons that made Spacetoad quit modding, or was he planning on quitting anyways?

[FlowerChild]

Hmm I can't believe that I realize this. I know she made you leave the forge, but I didn't know that she affected the other Forge modders too.

That one is just a matter of personal opinion man. My belief is that it contributed to it, but I can't offer up any proof, and that's as far as I'm willing to discuss it.

[kregoth]

Hmm I can't believe that I realize this. I know she made you leave the forge, but I didn't know that she affected the other Forge modders too.

That one is just a matter of personal opinion man. My belief is that it contributed to it, but I can't offer up any proof, and that's as far as I'm willing to discuss it.

Sadly I think almost all modders quit the scene simply because the lack of appreciation for the work they did. I don't know about Space Toad, but my understanding is probably under the same thought. People demand to much from modders, even though they soloy do it simply because they enjoy/love doing it.

And at the end of the day, if you're generally getting bitched at rather than being given thanks, that has a tendency to drop your moral. The sad part though is, if they stood ground more they could grow an amazing community of followers. You don't need a Million fans, because you don't need an API, so don't bother caring for the people who don't care for you!

And again sorry if this seems misplaced in anyway, but I feel sad for modders, I want to attempt modding but not under what I consider a far too hostile environment for me to enjoy doing it. I have the skills, but not the patience because I would piss off way to many people. God bless you for sticking with it FlowerChild!

EDIT: Also as to why i would piss people off? I am fucking slow, I don't really enjoy programming, but i know enough to mod minecraft. I'm no pro at it, so you would rarely see any updates for weeks if I was building a mod.

[FlowerChild]

Yup, I agree with you about under appreciation man, but the thing is, nothing makes you feel less appreciated than putting a ton of work into something only to have someone come along and do the exact same thing in a slightly more convenient/less challenging package and suddenly have people flock to it. It's seriously demoralizing, and just plain sucks.

Luckily, I think I've largely managed to avoid that by taking the road less traveled in going for more challenge rather than playing the "mo'power" game.

[kregoth]

The worst part about it, it really isn't Mojang's fault, it's Curse Network!

Mojang doesn't own nor run Curse, but Curse runs the official Minecraft Forums! If Mojang really wants to solve the issue, this is where they need to change. I understand why they let Curse handle it, there is just too many goddamn people to manager. Sadly though, Mojang really needs to step in and set some standards that Curse MUST follow.

I mentioned this on Twitter, but Mojang could care less about you modifying the Class files, what they hate is when you distribute those files. Which is what Forge truly got into trouble for, they had so many changes that they were basically redistributing, nearly 90% of Mojang's code. Yeah big time fuck up Forge!

Now BTW really has no worries, as most your Class file changes are fairly minor and the files you distribute are not as extensive nor numerous as Forge. Which is why no one at Mojang cares about BTW class changes. But it could still be an issue, just not enough to worry them :)

[Thalarctia]

[quote="kregoth"]snip/quote]
After having a couple of short conversations with Grum on the IRC about the Minecraft Terms of Use (it came up in a discussion about the difference between a mod API, which will never happen (his words!), and a plugin API, which is what they are working on), it is pretty clear that Grum is very black/white in relation to distribution of anything from the .jar. I believe I used the phrase that "Mojang was encouraging mods by not disallowing it via the ToS", and he was very adamant that not taking an active stance against it was very different from encouraging it. This was about 2 weeks ago, after one of his BTW streams, just to give a time perspective.

[FlowerChild]

I mentioned this on Twitter, but Mojang could care less about you modifying the Class files, what they hate is when you distribute those files. Which is what Forge truly got into trouble for, they had so many changes that they were basically redistributing, nearly 90% of Mojang's code. Yeah big time fuck up Forge!

Ummm...dude, they DIDN'T get in trouble for it. That's kinda the whole point here.

[BigShinyToys]

Minecraft is basically dead anyway . Onward to new pastures where the rivers run red with the blood of our enemies. RTH we await the torment eagerly ;)

[FlowerChild]

Guys, "not encouraging" is part of maintaining and defending a copyright. Notice how I don't even want to discuss deobfuscation on these forums? Same kinda thing. Remember how we were told by Slowpoke that Risu, when asked if ML could be included in FTB responded with "now that you've asked, I have to say no"? Same kinda thing.

If Mojang makes a blatant statement supporting .jar modding, they're basically giving up their right to defend their copyright with regards to redistribution should the need arise. Thus, we get rather ambiguous statements indicating their disapproval of such things, with no clear statements telling us to stop or that they want us to.

I've talked briefly to Grum about the ToU myself, and through the wording it was clear that there was a mutual understanding that there was some "don't ask, don't tell" going on here, and again, that is the way it has been for years with Mojang. I also made it clear during that conversation that were I asked to stop, I certainly would, and I *have not* been asked. On the other hand, when someone said that they were asked, he went out of his way to point out that wasn't true.

I'm going to shut this thread down as we're getting into some very dangerous territory here where people are again misrepresenting things that Mojang has said on the topic. Also, if Mojang gets backed into a corner over this, it's almost certain they will have to defend their copyright by telling people to stop, and that obviously has some pretty dire consequences should it happen.