Question about challenge relative to other mods

[FlowerChild]

Just curious here:

For those of you that play other mods, where is BTW on the challenge scale at present.

I'm curious as first, I don't really play other mods (well, not at all anymore), and the other day I made a comment about BTW becoming known as one of the most challenging mods around, which is a strong impression I've been getting from the MC community, but it leaves me wondering where it really lays within that scale.

Don't worry, I'm not interested in competing in any way with that, it's just something I find myself wondering about :)

[DemonButter]

Honestly, I find that only Terrafirmacraft is the only mod that comes to mind that adds difficulty to the game due to the completely overhauled game mechanics. BTW doesn't change the game as drastically as Terrafiracraft but the combination of all the mechanics added to the already existing game plus the mod tech advancements change how the game has to be approached. If a player doesn't consider his own well-being, well... you know. But if you play and experience the game you learn to prioritize and have many things to do, I don't mean to say it makes the game easier but survivable.

The general swath of mods out there give players more power almost from the get go as there isn't anything added to the 'survival' aspect of survival. They also don't aim to balance the game, all them shiny diamonds pumping into me box when I'm zipping around in jet-packs really makes the game play itself: the lowest form of none existent challenge but many expensive (bling-blinged) monolithic phalli though. Having the giant moving platforms as a tech toy is fun to play with every now and again.

tl;dr: BTW is most difficult next to Terrafirmacraft but that's another game itself.

[Tsugumi Henduluin]

Maybe it's my sheer incompetence at gaming in general, but I think a better question would be how BtW compares to other games, not just MC mods.

Early game BtW at least has not only been challenging, but also fair, something a lot of games these days seem to be missing. Either everything is a cakewalk making the game really boring really fast, or games go full Nintendo-hard mode, frustrating me to the point of flipping tables.

As for BtW comparing to other mods: I haven't played other mods in quite some time, but none that I have ever played (which are quite a few, actually) were really interested in adding any kind of true challenge. Either their challenge was nothing more than a pointless tech-tree grind (sorry Thaumcraft, I love you, but goddamnit your research system sucks), or came from overly complicated recipes that required a degree from MIT to figure out.
The only mod that even came close to adding a real sense of challenge that I have played must have been the Aether mod, but that challenge came more from MC's inherently lacking combat system than anything else.

*Edit*
I forgot about TerrafirmaCraft. Yeah, that mod might technically be more challenging, but personally feel it's the wrong kind of challenge. While I absolutely adore the metallurgy/smithing and other mechanics, the mod quickly devolves into an endless search of finding ore veins. Maybe it's different once you hit higher tiers, but at the start, you spend 9/10ths of a vein on picks, just to find your next vein. What little surplus you have is usually also used up so fast it's simply not worth it. I remember having an idea for a project involving lots of detailing with the chisel... until I found that carving out a single 3-4 block high pillar uses up just as many chisels and hammers. It was insane and not at all fun, even though the mechanic itself is pretty interesting.
*/edit*

So yeah, tl;dr: BtW is clearly on the upper end of the scale when it comes to providing a true challenge to players. But perhaps most importantly: It does so in a fun and rewarding way, instead of the cheap, easy way. That alone is what truly matters if you ask me.

[eternal8phoenix]

I've recently been alternating between solo BTW games, and co-op Thaumcraft/Twilight forest.

They are very different scales of difficulty. Thaumcraft is most comparable, but the flexibility present in it makes BTW the significantly more difficult choice. Thaumcraft in the presence of vanilla systems is kinda easy. I'd love to be able to use it with BTW but meh, I'll deal. Thaumcraft feels like a mod, an overlay to a standard gameplay experience, where BTW feels like a complete gameplay experience.

Twilight forest is a whole other kettle of fish. It's simultaneously easier and harder. Once the dimension is accessed, the surface of the forest is completely safe 90% of the time. The rest of the time it's only mildly dangerous. Where it's much harder is in it's arenas. As it spawns with multiple boss entities in various mazes, arenas or towers, there's always another boss mob to take on. Some of them are piss easy, like the boss of the minotaurs labyrinth. (Finding your way there is another kettle of fish, but I digress) Others are a lot harder, like the lich tower. The boss fights are the best bits of the mod. The twilight forest also provides a new dimension with a variety of biomes, unlike the nether, and is very pretty. BUT overall it's balance is weak. The rewards you gain for taking on these encounters are either way too weak, or way too much, there's not a lot of middle ground. BTW is a better mod than Twilight forest because it's more coherent and better balanced, but the terrain and the boss fights make twilight forest interesting.

TL;DR Better than wolves is significantly more challenging as a survival game than either Thaumcraft or Twilight forest.

[Mason11987]

I've played with a lot of different mods lately. I don't really think anything compares. I can't remember the last time I died in a non-btw world.

[Jesar]

I haven't played a mod other than btw since last year, so I have no idea about challenge relative to other mods, but I do believe the mod is very, very, very difficult. Like, maybe too dificult. Just a little.

[Ferrus.Manus]

The difference between TFC and BTW is how difficulty scales - BTW is hellishly difficult at the very start but steadily gets easier as you progress through the tech tree, TFC is easier to start off but it's still require ton of manual effort all the way up the tech tree.

[Thalarctia]

I also second that it makes more sense to compare BTW with other games rather than Minecraft mods - Largely because, as you have mentioned yourself, Steve is just waaaay too powerful a being. In vanilla minecraft, you can reach nigh-godmode within a couple of hours of play, and unless a mod changes how Steve works, the fear of death and loss of progress is non-existant. Sure, stuff like BC or Gregtech might be considered challenging in making the machines work together and such, but in terms of losing progress, that is not something you ever experience in those mods. So by that definition, BTW most definately is one of the most challenging mods out there.

I find BTW much more compatible with games like Dungeons of Dredmor, Faster Than Light or even Rogue Legacy. The main difference lies in the pacing - Where the games I mention can be rather fast, most sessions under 30 minutes, BTW has a completely different timescale associated with it, with a 'life' lasting anywhere from 30 seconds to infinity, depending on how you play your cards. The other games use random elements and chance to provide an intense experience on the short timescale, where BTW tips the scale to favour player skill over chance to a high degree, but at the cost of a greater time investment. Hardcore spawn works very well to justify that increased time, as even if you die, you never actually lose your progress, its still there for reclaiming.

[Gormador]

I haven't played a mod other than btw since last year, so I have no idea about challenge relative to other mods, but I do believe the mod is very, very, very difficult. Like, maybe too dificult. Just a little.

If you feel it's too difficult, then you're doing it wrong :-)

Anyway, regarding the difficulty of BTW in comparaison with other mods, it's easy to summarize : with BTW we climb the fucking mount Everest and it takes a month, with other mods you get droped directly on top of it after a day (and you also had time to visit the Kilimandjaro)...

Yeah, it feels pretty accurate.

[Tsugumi Henduluin]

I find BTW much more compatible with games like Dungeons of Dredmor, Faster Than Light or even Rogue Legacy.

Yeah, I second this. That's more or less the feeling I was getting, and it's something I believe FC and Icy mentioned in their MPLP series. "Permanent rogue-like" I believe they called it.
Yes, you will die. Probably often. But the game is consistent and fair, and you will learn and grow, mostly by systematically trying out different tactics and strategies.
In most other MC mods you just randomly roll your face over the keyboard until you find the win button, then sit on your pile of diamonds and other useless shiny objects the mods added.
.
.
.
Not that there is anything wrong per se with hoarding shiny objects. It just doesn't really provide any kind of long-term enjoyment.

[ElectroBot]

I agree with the sentiment here. BTW can't easily be compared to other MC mods.

I've played with tech mods for around a year and a half until about 2 months ago when I got bored with most of them and annoyed with others.

Mods like IC/BC/RP/TE/UE/Mystcraft/Thaumcraft give you different ways of playing the game, automating item/block collection/refinement/sorting, but with most you can be nearly completely "safe" in your world within a matter of a few hours/days. They don't provide a survival challenge, rather give you options/items to enhance your world through technical/magical means.

The are of course some like
- Terrafirmacraft which lengthens the gameplay by making it more realistic, but can get tedious
- Gregtech which adds additional crafting recipes some of which give additional resources, but overall just adds more things to do to get to a higher level rather than additional challenges
- Biome mods which to me (even though make the world more colourful) are more annoyance than they're worth when combined with other mods that require specific biomes for some tasks
- Aether mod/DivineRPG/Tale of Kingdoms (haven't played them much) add a way more engrossing RPG aspect to the game than vMC

[icynewyear]

I've played TFC rather extensively. It is in no means harder than btw. The problem a lot of people have with TFC is not difficulty but tediousness.

On the other hand I've heard of a mod called Easy Diamonds....I've heard thats a rather challenging one.

[Husbag3]

On the other hand I've heard of a mod called Easy Diamonds....I've heard thats a rather challenging one.

There was another one I heard about called redstone tools...

On a more serious note, I think that it's hard to compare BTW to most other mods with respects to difficulty as BTW is one of the few that changes the early game rather than just adding more technology onto the end of the vanilla tech tree. Having said that, once a constant source of food is obtained, BTW lacks any significant challenge whereas other mods will add boss fights and the like.

[Mason11987]

On the other hand I've heard of a mod called Easy Diamonds....I've heard thats a rather challenging one.

There was another one I heard about called redstone tools...

On a more serious note, I think that it's hard to compare BTW to most other mods with respects to difficulty as BTW is one of the few that changes the early game rather than just adding more technology onto the end of the vanilla tech tree. Having said that, once a constant source of food is obtained, BTW lacks any significant challenge whereas other mods will add boss fights and the like.

I disagree on that front. Most boss fights I've seen in other mods are ridiculously easy because the tools available to fight are so overpowered. Even the vanilla challenges (the dragon to secure the end for an endermen trap, and the wither for all the cool beacons) are hard in BTW because even though you could use steel armor, it's expensive, and actually has downsides, and if you screw up it's an actual threat as opposed to just dying then running back and picking everything up to start over.

[EpicAaron]

On a more serious note, I think that it's hard to compare BTW to most other mods with respects to difficulty as BTW is one of the few that changes the early game rather than just adding more technology onto the end of the vanilla tech tree. Having said that, once a constant source of food is obtained, BTW lacks any significant challenge whereas other mods will add boss fights and the like.

I must disagree as well. Food does not equal a shield. I have come pretty close to dying even after finding a source of easy food.

On that note, BTW isn't only challenging in the survival aspects but also in the creative side of things. From what I used to play, the only multiblock systems in the Forge mods involved pipes moving items from one block to another. What you need to do in Forge is very cut and dry. A direct path to infinite "automation" with overpowered items. In Better Than Wolves, my mind is challenged to come up with ways to automate and compact my contraptions while also trying to make them fit with my surrounding builds! I have never been encouraged to build anything other than a "9x9 Box" in any other mod.

[BinoAl]

...Other mods have challenge? ;)
BTW is the only mod that changes the base game enough to actually present a challenge. Other mods add functionality, but don't change the cakewalk that is vanilla. The only difficulty I have had in other mods is in gathering resources and designing systems, and frankly, can't even fairly compare to BTW.
That said, BTW can certainly afford to be harder :)

[Husbag3]

I must disagree as well. Food does not equal a shield. I have come pretty close to dying even after finding a source of easy food.

I'd like to point out that I didn't say it was a shield, it's just the most challenging hurdle to jump in BTW. Beyond that point, the tech tree is very much procedural and there are fewer choices and decisions to be made.

[FlowerChild]

Wow, ok, I wrote the OP right before going to bed, and awake to find a whack of responses :)

On a few points:

-Yeah, I realize comparing to other games is probably more relevant, but that's what I already do :) I play other games extensively, especially those in genres related to MC, so I have a good basis of comparison there. With other mods though, like I said, I just don't play them, which is why I was curious how BTW fit into that landscape challenge wise.

-The expression used (which was actually from a post someone made on MCF) was "Persistent Rogue-Like".

-"Too difficult" gets "Haha...noob" in response ;)

-I agree with the "fair" bit, from my own play experience with BTW. I've died maybe 20 times over the past few weeks in my new world, and they've all felt like they were my fault. Even as the creator of this thing, I've learned a lesson each time and been able to correct my behavior to avoid a similar death. Honestly, I think that may be the thing I am most proud of in the design of BTW, because I believe it so central to game design. Random deaths you can do nothing about are shit, and tend to drive you away from games. Deaths that are your own fault only push you to improve as a player, indicate that your own skill (or lack thereof) is the issue and give the sense that you have room to develop, and create an addictive quality based on the player's desire to improve and not let the game defeat them. Anyways, just to say that I am extremely happy with how that part turned out. If my own "game" is kicking my ass in that way without being cheap, then I think I may have come very close to the "5 minutes to learn, a lifetime to master" theoretical ideal, and that is hugely satisfying for me.

Anyways, thanks for the responses guys. Yeah, I realize comparing to other mods isn't particularly important or relevant, which is probably part of why I don't even play them. As I said, I was just struck by curiosity about it :)

[MoRmEnGiL]

I just want to pop in and state that "difficulty" in most mods is more about harder and or more tedius to tech up, rather that actually generally hard. Usually with the top of the tech at hand you are in virtual god mode in almost all mods. Where as it is not unthinkable at all to die in btw even with everything at your disposal.

Also, as a side-note, terrafirmacraft is extremely tedious. It's so much so that I cannot play it at all.

[CrafterOfMines57]

BTW is the first mod I feel has actually been responsible for my death other than the very rare occasion in Thaumcraft. I've never really done TerraFirmaCraft or Twilight Forest, and as such, Minecraft before BTW was always significantly lacking in challenge for me.

Forge mods really seem to focus on longevity and what I like to call "creative survival" where it lacks any sort of thing to really do in an attempt to survive rather than simply progress up the tech-tree. Some mods try to add difficulty, such as GregTech, but after playing BTW I can recognize any difficulty GT may add is purely artificial as the result of making other mod's items more expensive and requiring an absolutely insane amount of raw materials to truly reach "end-game" (as well as one afk-deterring mechanic that kind of makes it feel like the game is telling me "build, slave!").

I will admit that from time to time I see what's going on with FTB, and I had a hearty laugh yesterday when I saw "Explore your world and try not to starve while you build." in the description for one of their latest packs. I'm pretty certain nobody has ever starved in non-BTW Minecraft in the entire history of the game, and especially considering that pack includes Pam's HarvestCraft which boasts that it adds 275 foods (and which I have a hatred for as a result of the creator flat out selling requests for foods and crops to be added).

[DaveYanakov]

No mod that leaves beds intact can come close to matching BTW for challenge. I tried terrafirma and there was never a challenge to speak of. Even the feeling of scarcity of metals vanished as soon as the player found a large seam of any sort of ore and cave ins were an inconvenience at worst. The developers kept saying on their forums how the were going for a challenge, not realism for the sake of realism but I never saw evidence of this.

Thaumcraft has some good ideas but is severely handicapped by vanilla behaviors. If they dropped the crutches of cheap but powerful equipment from vanilla minecraft and remappable spawn points that are beds, I could see a lot of potential for a game where a physically weak protagonist took on the world indirectly using increasingly powerful and diverse magic.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I think it's pretty much impossible for any Forge mod to change fundamental vanilla behaviors like that. The screaming about broken compatibility would be endless, as obviously code from other mods would not know how to deal with the new rules.

It's always surprised me that Thaumcraft went with Forge given it seems to be defining its own play experience, and the need to conform that Forge promotes acts very much counter to that. I remember when it first came out, the MCF OP had a statement along the lines of "like Better Than Wolves, this mod is meant to be played alone". I checked again the other day, and that statement appears to be long gone.

[Sage]

It's always surprised me that Thaumcraft went with Forge given it seems to be defining its own play experience, and the need to conform that Forge promotes acts very much counter to that. I remember when it first came out, the MCF OP had a statement along the lines of "like Better Than Wolves, this mod is meant to be played alone". I checked again the other day, and that statement appears to be long gone.

It's still there in the old thread, under the FAQ/compatibility section:

Compatibility with Too Many Items (TMI)
Not all the items from this mod will show up in TMI. This is partly intended, but mostly due to technical issues. I'm using some very arcane code to save block id's and that does not play well with TMI. Honestly, it is a minor inconvenience at best and like BTW this mod is supposed to be played legit. For that reason any fixes to TMI is very low priority for me. Very, very low. SO STOP ASKING.

I haven't spoken to Azanor in a while (public pressure and he's not you, so he's a lot more reserved than before), but I think he has given up a bit on the balance of vanilla and other mods issue (it isn't his main focus), and he won't leave forge to give himself more freedom both for the shitstorm it would cause, or simply because its mod is a lot dependent on forge.

That's just my opinion, so if he sees this and disagree he can contact me on the MCF ;)

[MoRmEnGiL]

I'm not sure though it is entirely by choice ;)

EDIT: TC using forge I mean

[FlowerChild]

It's still there in the old thread, under the FAQ/compatibility section:

Compatibility with Too Many Items (TMI)
Not all the items from this mod will show up in TMI. This is partly intended, but mostly due to technical issues. I'm using some very arcane code to save block id's and that does not play well with TMI. Honestly, it is a minor inconvenience at best and like BTW this mod is supposed to be played legit. For that reason any fixes to TMI is very low priority for me. Very, very low. SO STOP ASKING.

Oh, cool. I could have sworn it used to say that it was intended to be played alone though. Pretty cool he still specifically mentions BTW there, and his not so subtle "fuck off" about supporting TMI. I've always liked everything I've seen from that guy :)

I'm not sure though it is entirely by choice ;)

It would take giant garbonzo moose balls man and a giant bag of "fuck offs". After all the hell I've gone through in remaining independent and in my breakaway from Forge, I could see why other authors would be very hesitant to do so, even if they believed it the right choice.

Like I said in my tweets: culture of fear.