Europa Universalis?

[Sarudak]

So after discovering how ridiculously awesome crusader kings is. (I'm currently playing a viking emperor of scandinavia who recently reformed the norse religion) I'm wondering if their other games are as good? I'm really excited about the prospects for Europa Universalis IV. Anyone else? And do you think it's worth pre-ordering?

[FlowerChild]

So after discovering how ridiculously awesome crusader kings is. (I'm currently playing a viking emperor of scandinavia who recently reformed the norse religion) I'm wondering if their other games are as good? I'm really excited about the prospects for Europa Universalis IV. Anyone else? And do you think it's worth pre-ordering?

The Universalis series is cool, but it didn't catch me in the same way as Crusader Kings, as it's not as politically focused. What really strikes me as cool about CK is the "you are this guy" element, which isn't really present in their other games. Uiversalis is much more "you are this country".

Hearts Of Iron is similar to Universalis (in WWII mind you). I played a lot of the 2nd one, but didn't feel compelled to play the 3rd. Again, excellent strategy game, but much more abstract gameplay that lacks the human element of CK.

If I were to recommend any of their other games, it would be Mount & Blade: Warband. I played the shit out of that one, and love it to death. The strategic element is much simpler than CK mind you, but the human element is much more direct, and the whole concept of starting out as a lone individual and slowly carving out an empire (if that's what you choose to do) is a huge winner for me.

If Warband reminds me of anything, it would be the Total War series, where you fight as an individual on the battlefield (instead of it being tactical), and where you're clearly a single defined individual at the strategic level as well.

In general, I really love Paradox as they're one of the few developers that still seems to focus on hardcore games.

[Ulfengaard]

Just expressing interest here, too. I'm really enjoying CKII, and it's gotten me hooked on other strat titles I wouldn't have considered before: Fallen Enchantress, Distant Worlds, and The Guild 2. Not all are directly related, but CKII opened the door for me. I'm really interested in EUIV, so I'll be interested to see what folks have to say.

EDIT: Ninja'd, but I took in everything you said there, FC. I think that one of the things that really appealed to me about CKII was the ability to play lower nobles, not just kings and emperors. "I'm Count of Breifne, but I'm also Chancellor for the Duchy of Ulster." Just too nifty.

[FlowerChild]

As you guys know, suspension of disbelief is a huge deal to me, and I find games that allow me to identify with an individual aid greatly in that regard.

I love strategy games, but the ones I really trip on are the ones that don't abstract it to the point where you no longer know who or what you are. Maybe that's one of the (many) reasons why the Total Annihilation / Supreme Commander games were the RTSs that appealed to me the most as well.

I guess I appreciate a little bit of role-playing in my games, even in genres that are not traditionally associated with it.

[EvanT]

Don't forget Homeworld you are the mother-ship's main processor. (Kind of)

[FlowerChild]

Don't forget Homeworld you are the mother-ship's main processor. (Kind of)

Yeah, I liked that game, but I can't say I connected with it very strongly.

I think I'm not super keen on space-based RTS games in general though. For me, they largely take terrain out of the equation and tend to be tactically less interesting as a result.

I think that's one of the things that I like about the RTS design you've been working on, in that you seem to be making it strategically richer through supply considerations, which I think is actually an ideal thing to do in a space game given the terrain thing.

[EvanT]

Well in space every unit is an "air-unit". So your "base" is a mobile fleet (stationed in proximity of an asteroid). Most players tent to look "down" on their units which makes them extremely vulnerable to attacks from "above". Additionally because of full 3D-space there are no terrain-bottlenecks to defend. I'm still not certain whether this is a plus because you need to have mobile defend-fleets or a point I should compensate with a "wall" like feature.

Assigning a group of destroyers in sphere-formation to guard an asteroid provides a scene I refer to as "ball of death".

The supply mechanism provides good reasons to stick to asteroids so the supply lines are short and fully defended. In Tier 3 a player can move asteroids but I guess few will bring one to the enemy just to have a nearby mass source.

[FlowerChild]

Actually, one idea I've always kept in my pocket for a space-based strategy game, which I'll throw out there as I think it unlikely I'll work on one anytime soon is broadsides.

If you've ever studied any 18th century naval warfare, maneuvering for position to bring your guns to bear while depriving the enemy of the same (further complicated by wind mind you, which I doubt there's an easy space equivalent for), is a big part of what makes those battles interesting, despite taking place on a largely uninteresting 2D plane.

I'm not sure if your game operates at a tactical level which would make maneuvering for that kind of positioning a feasible option, but like I said, it's something I thought would always go extremely well with a space based strategy game to help liven up the battles given the lack of terrain.

Errr...glad this is the off-topic sub-forum :)

[EvanT]

Wow, .. actually this is already in my game. All units have a main fire direction. For the exploration-ship this is starboard-aft, destroyer: starboard,.. frigate: ahead,..

The weapons do even have individual ammunition so one would have to turn when all weapons on a side are empty.

[edit:]There is no "wind" though and the units are manoeuvring automatic into fire direction. But since they can push each other and explosions do push units too, setting up a decent fire-line is still a task.

[edit: spelling]

Maybe we should move this to my threat where it does not include hijacking someone else's thread.

[FlowerChild]

Wow, .. actually this is already in my game.

Oh, cool! Yes, let's move this over to your thread. Even off-topic has its limits :)

[kregoth]

My all time favorite space RTS AI Wars: Fleet Command

This game has been around for a long time, and has 4 expansions (though I recommend only playing the base game if you try the demo) The game is my all time favorite RTS.

The game takes a while to get into and understand, but if you ever wanted to play a RTS thats very different from your standard, then you should try it. I suggest getting or trying just the base game, the expansions add a ton of stuff that for new players can make things a lot harder to get into. You can also activate and deactivate any expansion or part of an expansion when making a new game.

The biggest difference here is that the entire game is around trying to destroy 2 AI's "They own EVERYTHING on the map". They are far more powerful and have far more ships than you can ever produce "You are on the losing side all the time". The trick is being smart, the more you harass the AI for your precious needs, the more aware they becomes of your presence. What that means is the more planets you take and the more ships you kill the more they will attempt to eradicate you.

The game does an amazing job of giving the player near complete control over the difficulty and balance of the game. The AI becomes smarter, stronger and more aggressive with each planet or facility you destroy or take. It's also an amazing example of how to handle AI in an RTS without trying to mimic human behavior.

You rarely have to manage anything other than your defenses and fleets. Turtling does not work, being overly aggressive does not work. It's all about risk versus reward because eventually the AI will tear you apart. Do you take the world that has a facility you can use, or take the one with lots of resources? Each decision make the AI a larger threat, so you can't just smash and grab, it's all about survival with the slight chance for victory.

If you want to try a RTS that is all about strategy I highly suggest trying this game. If you really like it get the expansions, it adds so much stuff that you can play this game forever with any number of scenarios.

Edit: Oh yeah 1 word of warning about AI War. The game is meant to take a long time to complete, so expect a much longer game than most RTS's. Normal games can take up to 13 or more hours to complete. Luckily for me I never grew bored playing long games.

Side Note: I think I am going to look more into CK, damn you!

[FlowerChild]

Well, you just inspired me to take a closer look at AI War (which someone was kind enough to gift me a short while ago, but which got lost in a mix of other games I was trying), so damn you too! :)

[kregoth]

Well, you just inspired me to take a closer look at AI War (which someone was kind enough to gift me a short while ago, but which got lost in a mix of other games I was trying), so damn you too! :)

It really is the only game from Arcen Games that is really good. Would love to see more people play it and do some co op, though you have to set a schedule to play because the games can be long. The careful balance both players have to use is huge because you have to to use twice as many resources, but half as much territory because you have to share it, unless you want to piss the AI off faster by grabbing to much.