Trap Doors: Have I gone too far?

[Stormweaver]

When trap doors first came out (and I believe fence gates too), they weren't redstone powered. They were just plain old trap doors and fence gates. Then the masses bitched, so that got slapped in there without further consideration. As far as I'm concerned though, that decreased the value of more advanced blocks like pistons, and opened up a whole bunch of sploity behavior. If I was more aware, or willing, at the time, I don't think I would have let that leak through to BTW in the first place.

IIRC, It was fence gates that didn't use redstone power when they were released; trapdoors always have.

Though there was an update in...1.9pre? can't remember, that bugged the whole thing out and caused them to update from a distance, which might be what you were thinking of.

[FlowerChild]

You are on to something here. My first doors were 3 block high piston doors. I was real proud of them, they were the focus of build.

Yup, that's exactly right, and why I've basically avoided such systems like the plague. Thinking about and making entrances into bases is fun (and practical given you want to stop the mobs getting in while avoiding the inconvenience of constantly having to manually place and dig blocks), and like I said, one of the first examples of practical redstone new players tend to encounter (and in vanilla...one of the only).

Making your door better, making it open reliably from both sides, making it more convenient to use, and all that good stuff is basically redstone 101 and leads to bigger and better things. A class which can be almost entirely skipped with a couple of pressure plates.

[ExpHP]

Edit: Ninja'd.

[milkmandan]

I haven't used trap doors since the piston was introduced. I forget the recipe even until I need one for filtering. I tend to build one per world, for the mobtrap filter and then promptly forget about it again.

I was using two redstone powered fence gates only because it seemed stylistically more fitting. It keeps the cows/pigs away from the drop to the saws when there's not enough of them left in the breeding area. I can replace it with a iron door though without issue. I really have been meaning to switch them over to using breeding harnesses anyway so that any excess wheat from the autofarm can be stored.

All in all, with the recipe as is, I agree that it's overpowered to have it redstone responsive. If trap doors were actually used for, well, traps... eh, maybe with upped cost though it's competing then with vine traps for actual usefulness.

[TheGatesofLogic]

It entirely broke my automated cow farm..... I've had that thing running from the time I joined the forums and now I have to completely redesign it, the way it works means I can't just replace it with pistons or the like, I have to tear it down and rebuild. I think it went a bit too far......

[MoRmEnGiL]

But pressure plates and buttons have interacted this way with doors from day one, haven't they?

I mean I remember when I started my very first world, when I had enough iron to spare, I built an iron door for my front entrance, and used plate inside button outside to operate it.

EDIT: To clarify, when I talk about convenience and lazyness, my point is, I want to be able to just walk straight and the door open and close behind me, however that works. I don't want to have to manually operate the door/hatch/fencegate by clicking.

[FlowerChild]

But pressure plates and buttons have interacted this way with doors from day one, haven't they?

I don't see the relevance of the above point.

EDIT: To clarify, when I talk about convenience and lazyness, my point is, I want to be able to just walk straight and the door open and close behind me, however that works. I don't want to have to manually operate the door/hatch/fencegate by clicking.

Yup, I understand what you mean, it's just not a point of view that we share, nor is the above really a design consideration for me (except in trying to eliminate it).

To me, the above convenience represents a detriment to interesting redstone gameplay.

[DaveYanakov]

The discussion in irc just made crystal clear what I had tried to get across earlier. People who chose to use trapdoors in place of pistons were getting not only a more compact device, but were also skipping entirely the material requirements of iron, cobble and slime balls. While breaking builds is regrettable, redstone actuated trapdoors used in this manner ran completely counter to balance. I'm not saying that a redstone activated trapdoor style device is a bad idea but I do not believe that we should ever go back to getting a pistons worth of work out of 1.5 planks.

As far as the laziness element goes, that option is still available to you in the form of iron doors. It's vastly more expensive than setting up a double piston door but it makes sense that learning enough redstone to use pistons for a door is rewarded by cutting out two thirds of the iron cost.

[Stormweaver]

Well...arg.

Ok. I can see where you're coming from FC, but...I don't think removing the old pressure plate + door combo is really...necessary. Or a good move. Or at least not in the right place? It's hard to explain.

In better than Wolves, your experience with redstone is likely to go in an order somewhat like this; Some sort of timer for a chicken farm, a cut-off switch for your mechanical power, a bellows timer, a semi-automatic setup for some of the clay stuff, then the block-dispenser onwards stuff. An iron door, if used, is going to be a least after the crucible (and as such, after three potential bits of redstone gameplay, one of which is mandatory) due to the value of iron before then.

Removing the ability for a pressure plate to power the door, and as such, open it itself is more likely to confuse a player, or result in using the far more awkward button + door combos, or simply stop their use entirely, which people will inevitably moan about and...it won't really contribute any gameplay. There isn't really any nostalgia value either, since...well, like morm said, doors have always worked like that. If your intention is to discourage their use entirely in favour of piston setups, then it makes a bit more sense (clunky is good and all that) but otherwise, given how little gameplay there is to be associated with them, removing their primary method of useage isn't going to make them anymore, well, fun.

[FlowerChild]

Well...arg.

Storm, you have no idea what method I'd use to do something like that, or even if I'm going to wind up doing it. Thus, you're bitching about me just thinking out loud in explaining that I really don't give a rat's ass about the loss of convenience in terms of fence gate and trap door pressure plate setups.

It's not constructive. Ultimately, yes, I think those pressure plate setups are detrimental to gameplay, which is why I avoid them as a player (and yes, I still have plenty of fun with, and uses for doors), but how I might resolve that, or even if I will, is rather off topic for the conversation beyond the point I was trying to make.

[Mr_Hosed]

Back to the original topic, there's only one build I've consistently used, which the latest redstone update broke in-regards to trap doors.

Trap doors + Redstone interaction has only been useful, to me, when building large multi-level safe-drops. Basically a trap door on each floor with a button on top and a water stream underneath. Walk over, push the button, fall 60 levels in 10 seconds. Actually quite buildable even with HCB.

It's exploity as hell so I personally don't mind it no longer working, but it's basically the same build as the original post mentioned, but compacted and used for greater gains.

[Thyrllann]

Yeah, the changes to the Trapdoors have definitely broken my cow farm, (to a point where it would require a complete rebuild to regain that functionality, because pistons take up way more space than I had available when building it :/ ), as well as breaking a couple of other automated systems, but they should be able to be replaced by pistons relatively easily.

With the changes to the rest of the wooden items it makes logical sense with the consistency of the change - and I do like it, for the most part - it's just a shame that it would break the mainstay of my food supply.

[FlowerChild]

Ok guys, I'm going to close this down.

The more I think about this, the more it confirms for me that it was the right move, and I think what's required is my usual "this is the way it is, deal with it" approach. At present, I suspect a thread like this is only serving to provide false hope for those that may not like the change, in giving the impression there might be a reversal.

Basically, I can question my own decisions all I like (and I always do), but I don't think it benefits players or the community when I air those doubts in public. My apologies for the moment of weakness.