Considering accepting donations

[BigShinyToys]

I have only one query in Donations. If it comes to the point where you are only doing this for money Then it is called a JOB and people hate there jobs Because they have No other option that to Work.
SO Make shore that you put up a Disclaimer . Something like this maybe.

( I the mod author Hold all rights to Stop development of this mod When ever and for what ever reason I choose regardless of who donated or how much. By Donating to me You are agreeing to Not Use the fact that you donated to try and push a Suggestion on me as doing that will result in a Instant Permanent Ban form The official Better that wolves Mod community forums. All donations are for work already done And will not be refunded SO make shore you really want to donate before clicking Donate.)

When a hobby becomes to mundane as to be a to be Boring it is a job . If you want to stay happy about the mod Money would only be a Quick fix Not a long term solution. This is form personal experience with IT . I was quite good with computers and started doing repairs while at school to make money . After time I Started to hate IT with a passion and even looking at a computer pissed me off . I Stopped doing repairs and Have not been this happy in a long while.

If Better Than wolves Becomes a Drag Just Stop developing IT . (we will all understand)

[Fracture]

At any time it comes to be a drag, FC, don't worry about taking breaks. You've given us so much-- we can last without huge new updates from time to time. You need FlowerChild-time too. And if you need love and adoration from your subjects, we're always happy to give it xD

[Damion Rayne]

I would donate in a heart beat FC, if it meant keeping you up and working on the mod and moving forward. However, as some may have stated already, money may not be the problem. It might be that we, the community, need to take some of the brunt of the things that bother you. Those of us you know you can trust, and you can count on to give you good ideas, take care of the forums, the pr etc.

I thought perhaps that was why you created the flying turtles? Maybe more moderators? More people to help you outside the actual creation and development of the mod itself? Every good developer has a PR, HR, Community Manger etc. Why not start relying on the people that support you?

Anyway, that's just my rambling. I would support a donation, but "donations" does not make you "For Profit" FC, so you wouldn't have to take your vids down in my opinion. As the red cross operates on donations, but is considered a "not for profit" slash "non profit" organization. Also, you could do some audio swaps maybe, or buy the songs with donation money. Etc.

Point is this, yet again,

Let us support you and help you move forward, I for one would donate to help you go.

-DR

[belthize]

I've been a lurker for a while, essentially a consumer of your mod which I like immensely and play exclusively, but with nothing to contribute conversation wise other than some ideas on game design which I'm not dumb enough to bring up yet so I've refrained from posting, but here I'm dumb enough to toss in my 2 cents.

This sounds like a personal issue, you're hunting for something to keep your enthusiasm up. Clearly the consensus on the forum is if you allow people to donate some will some won't. I know personally I find it easier to work on projects if it's for somebody else than me, if it's purely for my own satisfaction I risk getting bored and moving on.

In short you've put in the effort, you've developed the mod, if asking for donations works for you then go for it. I think you have nothing to worry about in terms of opinion.

[grimper12341]

Yeh but the Red Cross uses the money it gets to help other people and support itself so it can keep helping other people (not that FC wouldn't of course), so not sure if that will hold up.

[Necropolis]

I'm of the same opinion as Triskelli on this. Profit should probably not be your motive, for several reasons. I can see that it might provide some incentive, as I myself find that I finish things faster when people are paying me to do them, but at the same time I'm usually less creative if I feel like I'm laboring for other people's benefit. And what kind of motive is money, anyway? It's a motive that carries along obligation. You would turn your mod into a contract. You would have the burden of feeling like you should add some feature because it's popular, and that's always something you've abhorred. I think this might only amplify your problems, with people making tons of suggestions based on the idea that since they're paying you should listen.

Unless you've become totally detached from money, and feel that (a) it is solely a way to keep score, (b) that you are likely to increase your score significantly enough for your success threshold to be crossed, and (c) that not meeting your expectations or hopes will not dampen your enthusiasm beyond your initial level, I would say to stay away from donations.

In the end, the vast majority of people deserve more than they get, but that doesn't mean that it would be in their best interest to get it.

[DaveYanakov]

I've often thought that I'd like to be able to send some compensation your way for the work you've put in. After listening to your interview however, I realized that your concerns about people who donate sometimes assuming that it somehow gives them creative control was entirely valid. In addition, there's another potential downside to accepting donations that I can speak of from personal experience.

After receiving money for work I'd been doing around the community. Prior to getting paid what were basically tips for jobs that had needed doing, I felt like I was doing some good in the world, doing my part by keeping the shared walkways maintained. After a few weeks of getting compensated I started feeling obligated to continue doing so in addition to thinking that I wasnn't making a fraction f what my time was worth. I wound up resenting the work and eventually just quit doing it two months later. This was back in the days when I was an angry young man of twenty years, so I can't say if I'd have the same reaction today but I would hate to see something you love turn into what feels like a second job.

I would love to be able to support your work in some way other than unsolicited suggestions from a hobby machinist and amateur historian. Having a shed full of power tools has made Minecraft a terrific game again for me. If you're not in need of the money yourself, you may want to think about setting up a charity fund that people could donate through in the name of the mod. Sending a cheque for a couple hundred dollars to Child's Play from BTW, for example, could be what you're looking for.

[Conscript Gary]

I personally don't donate to mods and such, but there's not a thing wrong with allowing people to do so as I see it. And as has been said by many, the best policy for the main forums is utter neglect. Keep the op up to date and leave the rest to the goodwill of this community here.

[FlowerChild]

Thanks for all the input guys. I don't think those of you worried about this becoming "just a job" for me have anything to be concerned about. I made games professionally for 15 years and as such am well practiced in making the distinctions between what is good for a game and what is good for my paycheck.

Also, I have no illusions about donations being able to support me in any way, so again, very different from it being a job. What I view it as more is an additional channel for people to voice their support for the mod and thank me for the work I've put into it.

I think that is the key element that I have found lacking since the mod became way more popular than it used to be. It is not that people stopped thanking me, and I still very much appreciate the thanks that I do receive, it was more that the ratio of respectful and grateful users to entitled children that only make demands got shifted very heavily towards the latter simply due to the demographics of who was using the mod.

I am not therefore considering donations as a way to get rich or anything like that, but rather as a way to feel more appreciated in what I am doing.

I still enjoy making the mod strictly in its own right, but what I find is constantly bringing me down and diminishing my enjoyment of the process is the lack of gratitude I feel from certain segments of the community, and I think being able to say things like "hey, the guys that DO appreciate what I'm doing just bought me this beer!" would be a great reminder to myself that things are not all grey.

If I can make an analogy, I think it would serve much the same purpose in my relationship with the community as sex often can in romantic relationships: all couples tend to come into conflict at one point or another, and it can become difficult to remember why you are with a particular person when that happens. In those cases, I think that sex can often serve to smooth out those lumps and help offset any negative emotions generated by providing a balancing source of pleasure associated with your partner.

I'm still largely making this mod for myself based on the kind of game I want to be playing when I am playing Minecraft. That hasn't changed at all. What I find HAS changed is how I feel about sharing that work with others to the point where I've often wished I could exclude certain segments of the community from even being able to use it and felt discouraged in working on new features because I've known that these ass-hats would be benefitting from my work. THAT is the area of the process that I feel I need to make changes to for the sake of my own happiness. Much like my sexual analogy above, I wish to create an additional pleasurable factor in the act of distributing this mod that helps offset the negative feelings associated with the shit I have to put up with as a result of making it available to a segment of the community I'd rather spit on than release additional content to.

[Triskelli]

*sigh*

Yeah, I have to agree that I've seen more intelligent discussions in bathroom stalls than what one encounters in the Minecraft Modding forum. And I know that you're one of the few people on the internet who can keep your head on straight when dealing with adversity. Just wanted to say my own opinion on the matter, and bring attention that donations can have unexpected outcomes. (Just look at what happened to the guys at Extra Creditz).

[TyberAlyx]

I've often wished I could exclude certain segments of the community from even being able to use it and felt discouraged in working on new features because I've known that these ass-hats would be benefitting from my work.

I will probably get banned after saying this but I just want to say I am 13.
I learned about your mod through yogscast and was fascinated by it. I am probably one of those kids whom you categorize to be hated but I guess I have no choice because I was "recruited" to the mod by the people you hate. But either ways, the mod looks great so I looked on to your thread and downloaded it. Never did I ask questions about installing and asked about problems but I did one suggestion that was neglected.
I thought suggesting was okay, but I didn't know you hated it that much, I guess new users usually get a cold shoulder. I understand that but I was so immersed in the mod I wanted to help, be part, or at least, get my regards to the modder. Instead, I got shut down. Though I am still happy though. The least I could do I guess is to help some problems with my age group and turns out fine.

Quoted above, I am scared for the mod to be closed on public. I just want to say keep the mod open for us. Not all of us are retards, and if you do get with the donation thing, I will gladly save some of my allowance to donate. I believe there is no downside in donation so do consider. I am glad to let this off my chest.

[Battlecat]

I've often wished I could exclude certain segments of the community from even being able to use it and felt discouraged in working on new features because I've known that these ass-hats would be benefitting from my work.

I will probably get banned after saying this but I just want to say I am 13.
I learned about your mod through yogscast and was fascinated by it. I am probably one of those kids whom you categorize to be hated but I guess I have no choice because I was "recruited" to the mod by the people you hate. But either ways, the mod looks great so I looked on to your thread and downloaded it. Never did I ask questions about installing and asked about problems but I did one suggestion that was neglected.
I thought suggesting was okay, but I didn't know you hated it that much, I guess new users usually get a cold shoulder. I understand that but I was so immersed in the mod I wanted to help, be part, or at least, get my regards to the modder. Instead, I got shut down. Though I am still happy though. The least I could do I guess is to help some problems with my age group and turns out fine.

Quoted above, I am scared for the mod to be closed on public. I just want to say keep the mod open for us. Not all of us are retards, and if you do get with the donation thing, I will gladly save some of my allowance to donate. I believe there is no downside in donation so do consider. I am glad to let this off my chest.

Well if you hadn't told us your age, I certainly wouldn't have guessed. You have expressed yourself very well and politely as far as I'm concerned and I am impressed by your choice to voice your views in such a polite manner.

Hate is a strong word and as far as I know doesn't apply to the Yogscast creators themselves or to new users who found the mod through their video like you did. I think irritating would categorize the wave of people who came into the main thread on the Minecraft forums to repeatedly harass Flowerchild about allowing his mod into the Yogsbox despite his choice to remain separate from modpacks. And irritation does get wearing after a while especially when the same message is constantly coming at you.

More generally in response to Flowerchild's comment about making the mod private, I think that would be a detriment to the overall community because it would exclude potential new good players who might want to try it before donating as well as the asshats. An internet blocking system that judged people on their overall behavior would be a joy, but as long as the internet is anonymous, we'll have the problem of the jerks. Just because they can download it doesn't mean you have to make it for them any more than Notch is making minecraft for the people who constantly insult and berate him in the forums and over twitter. The only way I can think of to stay sane in the face of that is to make it for the people you want to have it or who demonstrate their additional support through a symbolic donation and ignore the fact that it's publicly available to all the other twits. I hope that helps.

[screally]

Are you sure that receiving donations will smooth over the annoyance you get, and will continue to get from these "self entitled children"? They will still be there, and as some people have pointed out, may even be spoilt self-entitled children, capable of donating and then pushing harder for their rubbish suggestions.

Sure you could ban them, but you can ban people who are annoying already, and thats not changed how you feel about them.

Unfortunately, perhaps the best thing to do would be take a break from the mod... an actual break where you don't come back to the forums (inset: the dedication for still being here on vaccation... go have some fun instead!), perhaps play it offline, let your ideas for new concepts grow without the interruption of "diamond drill", and maybe this will reinvigorate your passion for the mod.

I'm not complaining because of the potential donation button, heck I'd donate if there was one, but I'm just saying don't be surprised if it doesn't make the people who are annoying you go away, and infact makes them even louder.

I've held back from posting in this thread so far since most of my points have been made, but also, you know you best, so go with what you thinks right. What makes you feel gratified might be different from me, or anyone else on the forums. Besides, you can always change your mind and remove donations after a while if you find they don't help.

[FlowerChild]

Sorry if my comment about "self-entitled children" was interpreted to mean that I was dissing a particular age-group. I'm not. I'm talking more about a particular pattern of behavior than anything else. Similarly, I have no problem with the Yogscast, but only with a portion of their fan-base that I jokingly refer to as "Yogaboos".

Also, please note that I am NOT considering making this mod private or what have you. It was a wish, nothing more, not a serious consideration that I was evaluating at any point. Rather, I was simply saying that I view the potential for donations as another way for me to balance out the distaste I feel for a certain segment of the community having access to my creations.

As for having fun on my vacation, I've been actively limiting my participation in these forums to give myself a break. For the first week, I didn't post squat. Now, I have a bit of downtime between activities, so decided to check in on things, and have mostly just been focusing on positive messages that I've been receiving.

However, since this is a topic I am actively considering with regards to the mod anyways, I thought it reasonable to ask for people's feedback on it to aid in my own decision-making process.

[Urian]

I've got no problems with you accepting donations, you certainly deserve credit for your work (pun intended). Relying on it as a motivational factor might work but there are also some potential problems I can see; as screally pointed out, it's possible that the "self entitled children" (of all ages) will feel even more entitled than before and won't be able to see the distinction between paying for something and donating. Seeing it as a way to judge appreciation might very well work but just remember that there will also be tons of people who appreciate your work even if they can't (or won't) donate :D

As for people complaining about how young people are viewed: Hey, we're only talking about how we were when we were kids ;)

[diegokilla]

I'll just give my own experience with donations and let you take it however you want:

I started hosting public MC servers simply because I was kind of lonely in the SSP world, and didnt like how many of the other servers were run. (Also, I have a pretty beast computer and like to put it to the test on occasion) Well after about a month or two of just generally fun gameplay (with a constant stream of immature "gimme gimme" people, and the occasional griefer/douchebag), I started to lose steam. So I merged with another server,and switched the gameplay from survival/freebuild to Hardcore RP. At this time my player base went from about 10-15 daily actives, to 20-30 constant simultaneous users. I ended up having to upgrade my internet connection from a $45/mo service to $105/mo. (Until this point I had been very highly and vocally against donations)
So I finally gave in and began accepting donations and got 1 donation of $5... about 1 MONTH later.(Donations eventually picked up a bit to cover about 1/4 of my costs) I only got donations from the people I didnt really expect/want them from, (the people that already did a lot of work being a mod/admin). When I did get donations, however, it tickled me pink! The feeling you get from a donation is really nice :D however short-lived it may be. Surprisingly, the people who did donate didn't expect or request anything at all. Most of them would just leave a note saying thanks. (I now offer a small, aesthetic bonus for donating, but at the time did not)

Well i just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Hope this helps in some way... (or at least gives ya a giggle)

[Dante80]

Nah man, it's cool and I haven't found the responses discouraging at all.

I'm largely interested in how people are reacting to my change in stance, rather than trying to figure out how much money I would gain from it :)

So far, no one seems to object, which is a rather encouraging sign for me.

As for the source of my despair over the community, I think it largely came from the vMC forums as someone suggested, but was more the result of the Yogaboo invasion rather than anything else. I think there was an element of "wow, so this is what it means to have a successful mod...no thanks" to it that has since faded but has been lurking in the back of my mind ever since. The vMC forums really aren't bad enough these days for me to feel that I need to avoid them, but I may reevaluate that stance once I release the next big feature I have planned, as it's sure to create another wave of mass-popularity for the mod.

One thing that I will note about this change to donations however, is that it will likely mean that I'll be taking down all my videos that I've already made for the mod.

Being a strictly non-profit mod before this point, I felt comfortable using copyrighted music under the terms of "fair-use" by non-profit organizations.

However, if I am even accepting donations, I feel that starts to tread on rather shakey ground in terms of copyright law, as I can no longer really argue that I am strictly non-profit.

But I do feel that enough people now make videos about the mod that it will hardly be missed. I haven't even released videos for the past few new features I've put out (partly because of the above), and no one has really complained about it. If anything, I kinda like the aspect of initial discovery that has gone along with me releasing features with very limited instructions over the past few releases. It's a different approach for the mod than what I used to take, to be sure, but I think it's a pretty cool one in its own right.

Regarding donations, my view is that they are always a welcome way for me to return back some of the added value a certain product or service gives to me, especially when its done free of charge. I would never pay even a mere cent for getting access to your mod, sorry (its a matter of principle/ideology for me) but I would gladly donate some money both for the reason stated above and for the mere fact that I like to support projects or causes that I find merit in. Hell, I do it daily for most of the things I like and want to support.

Regarding the use of videos for fair use and donations, there is really no reason to remove them, either you view the subject as a morality issue or a legality one. A donation is a gift given by physical or legal persons, typically for charitable purposes and/or to benefit a cause. Since you do not link (partial or full) access to content with a monetizing filter, there is no need to feel bad about using certain IP in derivative projects (like a showcasing video), especially since its done under the fair use principle. Personally, I both despise and actively campaign against current copyright legislature for the last 15 year or so, so this matter would not even come to attention. But still, there is no real need to.

Lastly, regarding community feedback/backlash, I think you should try to reevaluate your perception on this matter. One of the first lessons I learned these 2 last decades, from the age of the BBS of my teen years till the social information fusion we experience now is that truth - as beauty - are always in the eye of the beholder.

So, welcome to the internet man! Your distaste regarding entitlement theory and the state of the MC community is very valid. It should also be utterly irrelevant regarding the internal process you adopt when you work on your hobby. Otherwise, if you think more about it it shows either a subtle layer of self-centeredness, or worst still, a mild case of NPD. Getting frustrated over a given, known, predictable and easily quantifiable aspect of reality is both natural and logical. Having that impede or even be a factor in a creative process that neither requires nor needs it, is an exercise in self-inflicted masochism.

And an exercise in futility I might add, since its both de facto and de jure more exhausting to filter quality and more damaging to restrict the world into the mold that doesn't make you seek it.

Some honest feedback, hope that helps you in deciding what to do. Cheers, keep the goodness coming man...^^

ps: plz excuse my rusty english :p

[dyrewulf]

Even if you find your motivation affected by negativity and comments by entitled immature brats, I really don't see how taking donations could in any way be a negative. I mean say the level of this entitlement increases, as people donate then think they should be able to tell you how to make your mod or what should be done with it. Can't you just smile to yourself and say, stupid $#!T, you just gave me your money and I still won't give your suggestion/complaint the time of day? It's like you get paid for their stupidity. It's not as if they can come to your house and demand their money back because you didn't put their dumb idea into the mod.

You make your mod first and foremost for yourself, by yourself, ideas coming pretty much solely from yourself. As firm as you've stated your views on these things, I don't have any fear that you would get clouded in your judgement about what's best for the mod, no matter what donations might be made, it could only serve to show you the level of gratitude the community has for your work.

[FlowerChild]

Well, in response to the above, I'll share one of my own hard-earned life-lessons:

Finding logical reason why you shouldn't feel a certain way doesn't make your emotional reaction go away.

On the contrary, my experience indicates it just leads to denial of your own emotional state, resulting in those emotions becoming exasperated through represssion, which in turns leads to even more illogical expression of them down the road.

Saying "I shouldn't feel this way because it doesn't make sense" is a rather irrelevant statement because you DO already feel that way, and emotions are not governed by sense. You may decide not to act on your emotions given your logical evaluation of a situation (and I think that it's often wise to do so), but that does little to change the emotions themselves. You simply feel the way you do, and I think awareness and acceptance of one's own emotional state is central to being able to act independantly from it.

Unless viewed in terms of their evolutionary origin, emotions are inherently illogical, and I think that trying to reason them away is a recipe for personal disaster. I find a much more constructive approach is to attempt to accomodate them in a logical fashion much as I am doing here. I am feeling one thing, which I consider to be a negative influence on what I wish to do, and attempting to create a counter-balance through generating an opposing emotional reaction to generate a net emotional state that I feel will maximize my productivity.

I know that in order to be most productive in just about any task, I need to feel appreciated (which I think is very human) and that some of the community reaction I have been receiving has been acting counter to that. I give them free-stuff, they act like whiney bitches, I feel unappreciated.

Again, telling me that I should or should not feel that way doesn't change the simple fact that I DO feel that way.

[Dante80]

Again, telling me that I should or should not feel that way doesn't change the simple fact that I DO feel that way.

Of course man, and regarding my feedback, I didn't try to tell you how to feel. Just offered a change in perspective from my personal experience, that could maybe help with your decision process. It may well not though, thats the whole aspect of feedback in the first place. One man's honey is the other's poison. Cheers...^^

[dyrewulf]

I'm both offended and surprised. Offended by the fact that people question that I can't afford to donate (in my current situation) and implying that I have to be a kid with parents who refuse to pay for me. I am more than happy to explain my rather dull situation privately to anyone interested enough but I feel like this thread isn't the place.
As for being surprised it's mostly because I'm not easily offended so the fact that I'm reacting this strongly to a few comments is surprising in it self.

As mentioned, I think it's a good idea to accept donations if it helps keeping FC motivated (as opposed to skewing his priorities as he mentioned in the interview) but at this time I won't be able to afford it myself. That isn't saying I'll never pay, but currently I simply don't have the money for it and there's nothing more to it.

P.S: I really hope that my english is good enough to get that message across...

I think I need to address this, as I see how my comments might offend you, and that wasn't my intent, and in fact I apologize. However, the point I really intended to make was not to say that I don't believe you, or anyone who says they can't afford a donation, but rather to emphasize the fact that even a small, seemingly insignificant amount, donated by the majority of BTW users, would add up. Often I think simply because someone can't afford an amount they might feel is deserving, that leads to not donating anything.

I'm not well off myself, and could easily become unemployed down the road, but I still think I would manage to donate a little something to show my appreciation for a mod that I've benefited from and has so clearly taken a significant effort to create. Perhaps it's judgemental of me to put that out there, or say that I think others should have a similar attitude, but I think it could wake some people up, and maybe cause some second thoughts for those who dismiss donating out of hand. In fact, just putting my thoughts out there made me examine my own case a bit further, and I've since gone back and donated to some other modders who's mods I may not have thought of as essential, the way BTW has become, but which I have in my Jar and have had for awhile. When stuff is free, we have a tendency to take it for granted, and I'd rather people didn't do that is all.

[CommisarCain]

Man you started a silly topic FC. Donations give you a moral quandry? I am actually pretty offended I can't already donate. To me that says I don't give a crap if you like this mod or not (exaggeration). Also a donation is a donation. Donations are made without expectation of recompense beyond the obvious. If I donate to a cancer society I expect them to work on curing cancer. If they don't manage a cure, well what of it. If I donate to BTW I expect to be able to download BTW. Thats it. If you don't develop it into the GODmod of the middle ages. Well? What of it?

All of the above is what I assume when I see a donation button. If you specifically state "this is a hobby for me blah blah etc etc" Then what can anyone say? I mean really? I appreciate your hard work. Let me buy you coffee.

[logorouge]

However, the point I really intended to make was [...] rather to emphasize the fact that even a small, seemingly insignificant amount, donated by the majority of BTW users, would add up. Often I think simply because someone can't afford an amount they might feel is deserving, that leads to not donating anything.

I used to do that. If I couldn't donate as much as I felt the person/project deserved, I just didn't donate at all. It's different now, since I realized that the amount of the donation is irrelevant. It's the intention that counts. But imagine if 20000 BTW users donated just 50¢ each, that's 10000$ in donations for FlowerChild. Holy moly!

Anyway, back to lurking now. >.>

[RHCPepperfan]

Dear FlowerChild,
If you feel that you are being harrased by questions, suggestions, tips and whatnot, you need to first of all take a break as earlier suggested. Just no fora's for a while.

Then make sure only people who you want to reach you, can reach. As your community has grown that big you just cannot reply and answer everyone all the time. And most of all you shouldn't even read what people say. Take some trusted people who want to help you to take that job as listining to a community. Like 10 people or so who really are trustworthy and dedicated. Those who want to do this should take the huge input into a reasonable and relatively small input in what people REALLY want and makes sense.

Writing this on my iPod so please ignore grammar etc.

[CommisarCain]

I don't know how much I agree with limiting access to FC. In fact I really hate getting information 2nd hand. Oft times I find it quite....corrupted. Whether intentionally corrupted or not is a moot point. Digression over.