Scrolls...ok, wtf is going on?

[FlowerChild]

Anyone attempted making a unit focused deck like a Gravelock, wolves or kin-folk (if that's their name) centred decks? There's a few trials that play with these focused decks, just thought they offered an interesting strategy and wondered if anyone has had a chance to test their effectiveness?

I've definitely considered it for gravelocks, but man, you need a *lot* of cards, some of them rare, and potentially even a multi-colored deck (like I know green has at least one gravelock related card) to make it work IMO.

I suspect it's the kind of thing we'll see more of the longer the game goes on as a result. Also, with the 3 of a card limit on deck construction, I'm not even sure how feasible it will really be.

I've seen at least one person playing a rather specialized wolf deck though. I think that might be the most feasible one.

[Gilberreke]

Seeing this strategy discussion, I'm wondering: which of you used to play competitive Magic the Gathering? If you did, mention the format too (Standard, Block, whatever)

[FlowerChild]

Seeing this strategy discussion, I'm wondering: which of you used to play competitive Magic the Gathering? If you did, mention the format too (Standard, Block, whatever)

Well, I certainly didn't, but I was playing Magic pretty much from when it first came out, and always did so for "ante" back in the day, so we always took our games rather seriously considering it was basically "for money" in terms of the value of the cards on the table.

In fact, I lost interest and stopped playing right about the time when they removed that rule and people started refusing to play that way anymore :)

[johnt]

At one point in the mid-90s, I was a top 10 ranked sealed deck player in my metro area, but the closest I ever got to nationals was getting to the finals in a regional qualifier.

Haven't played scrolls yet, but this thread is tempting me.

[johnt]

Seeing this strategy discussion, I'm wondering: which of you used to play competitive Magic the Gathering? If you did, mention the format too (Standard, Block, whatever)

Well, I certainly didn't, but I was playing Magic pretty much from when it first came out, and always did so for "ante" back in the day, so we always took our games rather seriously considering it was basically "for money" in terms of the value of the cards on the table.

In fact, I lost interest and stopped playing right about the time when they removed that rule and people started refusing to play that way anymore :)

Fuck ante, we used to play winner-take-all sealed deck and booster draft tournaments every week, and iron man tournaments where you ripped up cards if they went to the graveyard. You couldn't get people to do it in constructed deck tourneys, but you could easily get people to do it in limited formats.

[johnt]

Hmmm...I'm beginning to feel a bit torn...

My games seem to be routinely lasting 30-50 turns vs other players. I'm definitely winning more than my fair share, but my deck seems to be extremely slow burn. Basically, defensive early game, slow build up, very powerful late game. I'm even routinely and intentionally sacrificing 2 idols early game as I focus on defending 3, which I think gives my opponents the impression they're about to win, only for me to start making a steady comeback. Basically, early game I focus on defending those 3 and culling as many of the enemy's units as possible. Eventually they are reduced to none, and only then do I start pounding idols (which usually only takes a couple of turns because I have multiple cannons in points and enchantments to up their rate of fire).

I guess I'm feeling torn as I think I'm realizing I must be annoying as fuck to play against because of this :)

I don't mind long games at all, I actually like them a lot, but what do you guys think: bad form?

For competitive games, playing to win is the only rule, IMO. Do what you have to. Its really only bad form if its both annoying AND loses all the time anyway n

[FlowerChild]

Fuck ante, we used to play winner-take-all sealed deck and booster draft tournaments every week, and iron man tournaments where you ripped up cards if they went to the graveyard. You couldn't get people to do it in constructed deck tourneys, but you could easily get people to do it in limited formats.

What I really liked about ante was how it acted as somewhat of a self-balancing mechanism. Yes, you could build your deck out of a ton of high-value cards, but that also meant you were risking way more in playing against some poor bastard with just a starter deck. So, people with stronger decks were more likely to win, but they were also risking way more in the process. If your opponent got lucky, it was going to likely hurt an awful lot. At the same time, it also provided incentive for people just starting out to take a shot at playing against stronger decks instead of just feeling steamrollered by them.

I don't think what you're describing above captures that.

[Shengji]

What I really liked about ante was how it acted as somewhat of a self-balancing mechanism. Yes, you could build your deck out of a ton of high-value cards, but that also meant you were risking way more in playing against some poor bastard with just a starter deck. So, people with stronger decks were more likely to win, but they were also risking way more in the process. If your opponent got lucky, it was going to likely hurt an awful lot. At the same time, it also provided incentive for people just starting out to take a shot at playing against stronger decks instead of just feeling steamrollered by them.

I don't think what you're describing above captures that.

Exactly this! I lost interest when I couldn't find anyone to play ante, people started to get way too precious about it all, it became he who is prepared to sink way too much money into it will win.

[FlowerChild]

I lost interest when I couldn't find anyone to play ante, people started to get way too precious about it all.

Agreed...I remember even back then I started face-palming when people started showing up with decks wrapped in plastic and that kind of stuff.

Best game I ever played I had a 40$ card in the ante pile (Force of Nature if I remember right) with another experienced player that had a 20$ card on the table (some fishy blue card that I can sortof remember the picture on, but not the name), in a 5 way with 3 relative noobs that had anted cheap-ass cards. 20 years later I still remember it vividly as it was one of the most intense gaming experiences I have ever had, in any game either table-top or computer based.

My friend with the 20$ card ended up taking the pile, but *everyone* in the game was absolutely out for blood and trying their very best to win, even if they were at a distinct disadvantage due to their relatively weak decks.

"Ante" was a brilliant design decision IMO, and I think it was what primarily attracted me to the game to begin with. I've always wondered if they had to remove it due to legal reasons (after all, as the cards developed real-money value, I could see that rule falling afoul of gambling laws), or due to player bitching.

EDIT: One thing that just occurred to me is that this rule might have helped with the early trading aspect as well. Given we were playing "for money" players were highly motivated to look up and know the value of all the cards in their decks almost right from when they started playing.

[Shengji]

"Ante" was a brilliant design decision IMO, and I think it was what primarily attracted me to the game to begin with. I've always wondered if they had to remove it due to legal reasons (after all, as the cards developed real-money value, I could see that rule falling afoul of gambling laws), or due to player bitching.

Oh it was amazing - interesting theory on the gambling issues, I know of several games which had issues with the gaming commission in the UK, I know Diablo's RMAH was subject to an extensive investigation - I made a freedom of information request to the gaming commission about 6 months before its release and sold the gathered info about the ins and outs of its workings to a gaming website ;) Sadly however, I think MtG became a victim of a million voices bitching and someone not paid to design games making decisions on game design!

[Detritus]

Interesting thing that one of the people at Mojang tweeted yesterday - Scrolls has officially made more money in one week of beta than it cost for them to make it. It's now profitable!

[Wafflewaffle]

i really do enjoy the scrolls game flow. But i do miss some feeling of progression, also i picked the wrong deck so im stuck with it =(

[sin6il]

i really do enjoy the scrolls game flow. But i do miss some feeling of progression, also i picked the wrong deck so im stuck with it =(

Well if you do all of the easy and medium trials you should get close to enough money to buy a new deck, but I think that money would be better spent enhancing your deck.

[Gilberreke]

Well, I certainly didn't, but I was playing Magic pretty much from when it first came out, and always did so for "ante" back in the day, so we always took our games rather seriously considering it was basically "for money" in terms of the value of the cards on the table.

In fact, I lost interest and stopped playing right about the time when they removed that rule and people started refusing to play that way anymore :)

Sure, playing for ante ups the competitive spirit of the game of magic, but I dare say that unless you were buying magazines and reading up on current meta-games and specific deck-building strategies, you wouldn't win a single game against someone who did.

The reason I bring this up is because I'm noticing that there will be a certain meta-game that will develop and you will be seeing that there's maybe 3 or 4 viable deck designs for Scrolls with nothing else being able to touch the ones running those. I've been playing Magic since 1995 and I've never known a period of competition where it wasn't like that. It's the same for all other card games I've seen in competitive use, so I wouldn't know why Scrolls is different.

I was just wondering whom of you guys was used to playing in an environment like that :)

Now I want to run some ante games :)

[FlowerChild]

Ah...no, I've never experienced that. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the board provides enough variance to reduce the likelihood of that happening, as I suspect the kind of play you're describing would rapidly bore me due to the lack of variety.

[Stormweaver]

I'm wondering what mojang's approach to balancing the game is going to be? Mainly; I have a kinfolk brave which can sell for 1.2k. It would also work brilliantly once I shift from Energy to Energy/Growth; moreso, should I pull another.

But my gut's telling me it's going to be hit in a balance patch. urg

[FlowerChild]

I'm wondering what mojang's approach to balancing the game is going to be? Mainly; I have a kinfolk brave which can sell for 1.2k. It would also work brilliantly once I shift from Energy to Energy/Growth; moreso, should I pull another.

Do you have a good site for checking the current value of the cards? The above makes me realize I really need to be more careful about just selling excess cards back to the store. I don't think I've ever done so with any rare cards, and I only ever do so if I have more than 3 of a kind, but still.

[Stormweaver]

In the arena, just spend a few mins scanning the trading-1, trading-2 and trading-3 channels; That's where I've been today when taking a break between matches.

Most halfway decent cards can go for at least 100-150 though.

[danielngtiger]

http://scrollsprices.com/ is pretty good. The nature of any such website is to be somewhat inaccurate, but it is fine for getting in the ballpark. My feel is currently that prices are currently somewhat inflated do to the general lack of cards, as in general the price of most cards seems to have dropped since release day. Only time will tell on that score though.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Stormweaver]

That isn't a bad list actually; everything seems to be more or less (mainly more) than I've observed over the day.

Selling waking stones for a gold piece over 500 is murder though. Great wall, no-one wants to buy it :(

[FlowerChild]

Selling waking stones for a gold piece over 500 is murder though. Great wall, no-one wants to buy it :(

Yeah, playing against those things as energy is the bane of my existence :)

[Stormweaver]

Yeah, playing against those things as energy is the bane of my existence :)

You know something's a good wall when concentrate fire on a gun automaton seems like a good idea >.<

I'd have kept them for a theoretical energy/order later down the line, but I'm too used to my walls actively doing things.

[FlowerChild]

You know something's a good wall when concentrate fire on a gun automaton seems like a good idea >.<

Hehe...indeed. Do you happen to know how they interact with creatures with the relentless attribute? I don't have any in my deck right now, but I may become much fonder of iron ogres if they plow through those things.

Otherwise, I think I'm going to start including some anti-structure cards in my energy deck (I don't have any right now as I find them too special purpose) to counter them.

[JakeZKAM]

Started playing this a couple days ago and I have to say I love messing with formations to get the most out of my attacks. While I've barely scratched the surface of what card combinations I can make (Starter Order set with a couple different cards thrown in) I am loving the way it plays. However I still feel very noobish at this game, and my tactics seem to revolve around getting two attacks in a row by placing my general in the midst of a bunch of tougher skirmishers, then switching out formations for the next wave of attacks to focus on specific idols.

I did take FC's advice from an earlier page at controlling the center, and it's certainly been paying off! Any other tips for a fairly new player?

[Stormweaver]

You know something's a good wall when concentrate fire on a gun automaton seems like a good idea >.<

Hehe...indeed. Do you happen to know how they interact with creatures with the relentless attribute? I don't have any in my deck right now, but I may become much fonder of iron ogres if they plow through those things.

Otherwise, I think I'm going to start including some anti-structure cards in my energy deck (I don't have any right now as I find them too special purpose) to counter them.

Not a clue; iron ogre was the first card to leave my deck and until I do something with those gravelocks It'll probably stay that way >.< Too big, too slow, not ranged. And I still haven't pulled machination mindset >.>

They wilt pretty quickly under massed destroyer fire though.