4.71 Gameplay Balance Discussion Thread (READ RULES OR BAN)

[nolaw70]

Started a new world with 4.70.

I went into this world with priorities set by the recent changes in the mod. Spawned in a large biome swamp. This made the food situation trivial as I had previously found that mushrooms are the best bang for your buck food wise in the very early game, as long as you have a plentiful supply of them. Spent the first day scouting around for a witch hut while gathering about five stacks of mushrooms. Buried myself in the side of small hill for the first night, without even punching wood.

Only had a close call with a creeper the next morning coming out of the hill. Spent the next few days gathering wood, saplings, mushrooms, lots of pumpkins, some coal and enough iron from surface caves to make a hoe. Spent the nights in a boat in the water in the adjacent ocean, found a very small island (about ten blocks) within eyesight of the mainland, but apparently far enough away to keep things from spawning. I knew I wanted to have a place to work through the night (since the hiding in the cave doing nothing for several nights had pretty much killed my desire to continue on previous worlds) while also preserving the animals on the mainland for future use (in the past I simply dug a pit by hand, shoved them in and covered them up to prevent the first night massacre). Built a mob spawn proof wood platform around the small island that would accommodate a pumpkin farm large enough to compensate for the reduced growth rate, a hemp farm (from one seed obtained from beating grass) an eight tree farm that keeps me well in the surplus on wood, and started to dig a two wide shaft down to bedrock. I had to pause a bit to let some trees grow, but that was the only real pause once I was on the island.

To me, the reduced efficacy of stone picks is irrelevant once you have adjusted to it. I have about two stacks of planks on me at any one time, usually more, and it is trivial to me for make four or five stone picks, mine, make another batch, rinse and repeat. I have started a branch mine, found three diamonds and enough iron to make a pick and some shears. Even though I have an iron pick, I am satisfied enough with the stone picks to only use it if for the ores that require it. I use a shovel a bit more than normal, but do agree with a previous post that it seems they are out of whack when compared to the stone pick changes.

After about four hours of play, I have a food surplus from the pumpkins, four stacks of cobble and a half stack of vine traps. Next, I plan on mining a couple more stacks of cobble and then will make a rudimentary sky mob trap to procure the creeper oysters for the diamond pick and solve the constraint on iron, then head to the nether. I have scouted enough cows on the mainland that I feel no pressure to find a village before ascending the tech tree, especially with the advent of cut leather.

[FlowerChild]

To me, the reduced efficacy of stone picks is irrelevant once you have adjusted to it. I have about two stacks of planks on me at any one time, usually more, and it is trivial to me for make four or five stone picks, mine, make another batch, rinse and repeat. I have started a branch mine, found three diamonds and enough iron to make a pick and some shears. Even though I have an iron pick, I am satisfied enough with the stone picks to only use it if for the ores that require it.

You've heard it here first folks: some people will never get the concept of their own time being a resource no matter how hard you hit them over the head with it.

Looks like I'll have to up the ante yet again, as there's no way in hell I want to subject players to the above even if it's their own fault, and there's no way I want to nerf stone tools further in order to further discourage this.

[Nelgoth]

I was definitely exaggerating with 3 hits. It just feels like that when a horde of zombies shows up for some surprise sex and you start swinging like Helen Keller in a cage fight with Andy Dick. I feel like I need some kinda go-go-gadget ax dispenser on my wrists. Like Wolverine, but with more flannel and maple syrup.

Also, I already owe you several cases of beer, so I really hope it doesn't take too much work.

[Sarudak]

You've heard it here first folks: some people will never get the concept of their own time being a resource no matter how hard you hit them over the head with it.

This makes me sad... It's like they want to grind their lives away in meaningless activities...

[johnt]

Just as a datapoint, I hate grinding and I never, ever branch mined before the hardcore changes made death so punishing and caves so much harder to explore, now it's pretty much all I do in the early game and won't even venture into the caves unless I see iron from the surface.

edit for some additional thoughts: And just to give you a specific example of how much my game play changed from the hc changes -- I used to dig down to bedrock and then try to find a cave to explore at that level. I actively tried to track them down from the sounds of mobs. When I dug down to bedrock in my current came, I actually hit a big, juicy cave, took a few steps in to see if I saw anything I could mine right away, then I just walled it in and branch mined in the opposite direction. Not a decision i was super happy about, but I'd been killed exploring caves so many times by that point that I just didn't want to risk it again.

[Elensaar]

I spent some time in a new world with 4.70, and both HC Bouncing and the stone tool rebalance feel perfect. Having to consider cobble as a resource and think about what to use it for feels just right. As for the bouncing, the only place I noticed it, really, was when branch mining. I usually fill in 'holes' left by mined out resources, and I noticed I try to place cobble underneath myself when jumping out of the last 1x1x1 hole quite often. Will get used to it.

Only one thing that felt slightly off was that, so far, branch mining with an iron pick is not paying off. I spent my first pick, and ended up with 20 iron nuggets for my trouble (even while ignoring some other resources so not to use up the pick too fast). I figured 'bad luck', got hold of the rest with stone picks and some exploration, and tried again. And again the same. Probably there's something off in my mining strategy, though mathematically speaking I should be getting close to maximum resources per stone block mined. Right now it seems that mining will have to wait until I have a manual mob trap to get the oysters I need to extend my tools life, and that caving will be a better return on investment right now. Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily, mind you. Just an observation.

Overall, I'm loving these changes. I can feel there's a natural shift going on in my playstyle, towards a more cautious and attentive approach to my surroundings. It feels right, and getting the resources and infrastructure I need for big projects in the future will make them that much more rewarding.

[FlowerChild]

I'm a little surprised people are mentioning mob-traps in relation to creeper oysters, as I would think the volume of them most people go through would tend to naturally accumulate just through killing the odd creeper here and there.

[Elensaar]

I usually don't kill the odd creeper here and there. I avoid the odd creeper. ;)

[Cobar]

I'm a little surprised people are mentioning mob-traps in relation to creeper oysters, as I would think the volume of them most people go through would tend to naturally accumulate just through killing the odd creeper here and there.

RL has had be terribly busy, so I have not had a chance to play since some old version pre-oysters. I started a new world with 4.70 and do not have a mob trap yet, I have yet to even see creeper oysters.

[DiamondArms]

With death penalties, I find creeper hunting is unadvised, seeing as they tend to kill or cripple in one shot. Most would avoid hunting creepers as the main way of killing creepers also leaves the drops outside of reach.

Mob farms are practical in that they are safe ways of getting creeper oysters without the associated panic and threat that creeper hunting generates.

Having played for a while on a 4.7 server, I find myself preferring to run from creepers unless I have a bow and at least 3 arrows on hand. I've only had one creeper kill so far, and that was a strange affair where the server lag actually saved me by sending my compiled hits all at once, killing the thing right before it exploded. Another ambushed me out of sight as I was leaving and left me at 1 heart. I got lucky, but creepers are not exactly a mob you kill casually as part of adventuring.

[chaoticneutral]

The caves, man. The caves. I can't skip them anymore... I need an iron pick for branch mining without needing to craft a bazillion of stone pickaxes.

[johnt]

I think i'd be more willing to go into caves if creepers weren't so much insta-death without full armor. It's a lot easier to be tactical with zombies, skeletons and spiders, even if they surprise you. If a creeper surprises you, you're often just dead.

[FlowerChild]

I think i'd be more willing to go into caves if creepers weren't so much insta-death without full armor. It's a lot easier to be tactical with zombies, skeletons and spiders, even if they surprise you. If a creeper surprises you, you're often just dead.

If they surprise you, it is usually due to poor planning or not staying aware of your surroundings.

[eternal8phoenix]

I haven't updated in a while (pre-optimizations), so it felt like a huge change. Booted up a new world, and got going.

Wooden pick changes don't really bother me, since you only ever make enough for a stone one.

The stone picks do feel grind-y...It'd feel a little better if you got 9 or something back. It's not unplayable like I thought it'd be at first, but it is a nuisance.

I've had a bit of bad luck regarding iron, so I only have the one ingot,and I'm actually still debating as to what to make with it. A hoe still feel favorite as getting me some padded armor would be nice. Although this may depend on whether or not I can find some chickens...For once, not a single bloody one near spawn. Although I do have a nice amount of steak stashed up, and two "lucky" cows stashed in a pit with a floating dirt roof. Great for keeping the zombies away :)

Since the whole cut leather shears thing I've been hoarding my leather. I've not made a single piece of armor and don't think I will 'til I have some shears. I don't want to use twice as much when it can be avoided.

[DaveYanakov]

I have found the opposite to be true. Creepers are tied with zombies for easiest mobs to handle tactically. If a skeleton that I didn't see on a ledge snipes me, I'm going to be lucky to get out of his line of fire before I'm crippled. Spiders are even worse as they can pin you in place and have their skittery way with you at their leisure.

When I need creeper oysters, I just go out and hunt creepers right after sunrise when all the other mobs are burning away.

[johnt]

I think i'd be more willing to go into caves if creepers weren't so much insta-death without full armor. It's a lot easier to be tactical with zombies, skeletons and spiders, even if they surprise you. If a creeper surprises you, you're often just dead.

If they surprise you, it is usually due to poor planning or not staying aware of your surroundings.

Well sure, but then you get into the reason that I don't go into caves without a pile full of torches, slabs, iron sword and so on--- so i don't get surprised. It's just easier and less time consuming, grind and all, to branch mine, the way the balance is now.

[nolaw70]

To me, the reduced efficacy of stone picks is irrelevant once you have adjusted to it. I have about two stacks of planks on me at any one time, usually more, and it is trivial to me for make four or five stone picks, mine, make another batch, rinse and repeat. I have started a branch mine, found three diamonds and enough iron to make a pick and some shears. Even though I have an iron pick, I am satisfied enough with the stone picks to only use it if for the ores that require it.

You've heard it here first folks: some people will never get the concept of their own time being a resource no matter how hard you hit them over the head with it.

Looks like I'll have to up the ante yet again, as there's no way in hell I want to subject players to the above even if it's their own fault, and there's no way I want to nerf stone tools further in order to further discourage this.

To further elaborate on my previous statement, I did NOT spend four hours mining with stone picks, perhaps 30 min total. While mining with stone is slower with the changes, I was only mining with some fixed goals in mind; iron for a pick and shears, diamonds for a pick, cobble/dirt for a simple mob trap. Once I had the iron for the pick, I grabbed the diamonds I had already ran into on the first branch of the mine, then mined for iron for shears. Once I had that, I went back to the mainland for vines for the mob trap. The whole point of the mob trap is so I do not have to mine for iron (or anything else) with stone picks again.

As far as my point about being "satisfied" with stone picks, it is more accurate to state I was satisfied with their performance when compared with the iron pick to accomplish the immediate goals I had; they are certainly NOT acceptable once I have an infinite source of iron. I did not want to "waste" my iron pick on cobble until I did not have to worry about iron again (since stone picks are a pain in the ass), and I only needed enough cobble for the trap. I dont NEED the cobble for the trap of course, I just want it to prevent my trap from burning up from a lightning strike.

As far as the oysters, I have chosen to eliminate the risk of dancing with creepers for their oysters by harvesting them with a mob trap that solves other supply issues as well.

[heypaint]

It sounds like most people are gathering iron by "caving," while nolaw70 has chosen to "branch mine." I wouldn't criticize him for weighing his options and choosing a strategy just because it's not your own preference, especially if it works.

I think this demonstrates "the balance" FC has worked so hard on. One is pretty safe, but the trade-off is that it is slow (maybe very slow) and hogs wood, and to make a monster-grinder would take a bunch more resources (stone or wood). The other is much quicker but the trade-off is danger, and far less resource hungry.

Thanks for sharing that nolaw, I might even implement a little of it in my own play-style.

[A1XOS]

Somthing that feels off is that -due to vanilla minecraft logic- ores found while strip mining is equal to the ores found while caving. This makes strip mining more benifitial. You have done a good job trying to make strip mining less benifitial, but I feel the main problem is that ore dispersion is equal whilst caving as it is whilst strip mining. I feel that ore veins spawned next to water, lava or air blocks needs to either be bigger or less rare than veins spawned completly encased in stone, gravel or dirt. No I'm not asking you to buff cave spawned ores, I'm asking you to nerf non-cave spawned ores.

[nolaw70]

It sounds like most people are gathering iron by "caving," while nolaw70 has chosen to "branch mine." I wouldn't criticize him for weighing his options and choosing a strategy just because it's not your own preference, especially if it works.

I think this demonstrates "the balance" FC has worked so hard on. One is pretty safe, but the trade-off is that it is slow (maybe very slow) and hogs wood, and to make a monster-grinder would take a bunch more resources (stone or wood). The other is much quicker but the trade-off is danger, and far less resource hungry.

Thanks for sharing that nolaw, I might even implement a little of it in my own play-style.

I believe that you have to take the whole "time cost" of branch mining in context with the other changes the mod makes along with the realities of vanilla terrain and ore generation.

While obtaining iron or coal form surface deposits is easy, it is usually a rare occurrence due to terrain generation and influenced by the biome you spawn in. Next source in terms of ease of access is caves, usually the easy pickings found at or just inside the entrances of the caves rather than deep inside whatever cave network it is linked to (if at all). Initially you are probably just moving from cave entrance to cave entrance, looking for the low hanging fruit. This takes time, time that may be better spent on other activities, especially early on. Mitigating the risk of venturing further into caves takes time as well; I can explore any cave in the game in complete safety with a sufficient supply of dirt and wood, but it would take a while. Making it quicker takes time and luck (fining enough coal for torches). When mining ore from surface deposits/cave entrances, additional time is needed to maintain your tools; you will have to mine enough cobble to maintain your supply of tools to continue your mining of the ore.

With branch mining, I do not have to worry about finding cave entrances at all, or if the cave generated in such a way to expose ores; I will expose them anyway. My use of torches, while required, is minimized by the lack of space I need to illuminate (a 1x2 shaft rather than a bunch of dark spots in larger cave areas, and easily shut off branches with no illumination once they have been exploited). I can branch mine in complete safety from mobs and other hazards (including night); this is important because of the serious time cost that Hardcore Spawn inflicts on you (and rightfully so). I am generating a surplus of cobble so I do not have to stop and specifically mine cobble to continue mining ores, a surplus large enough that I can start construction with it immediately. I am also gathering additional required ores at the same time I am gathering iron.

So, from a time efficiency stand point, I may be at the same place (or even ahead) resource-wise from branch mining than if I had wandered around a wide area, spawned a bunch of mobs, and rolled the terrain/ore generation dice for easy iron/coal before starting mining.

The only real input cost (other than food) is the need for sufficient amounts of wood. In my branch mining episode I described earlier, I went through about 45-50 planks I imagine, between tool handles and torches. Which is just a few trees worth of logs.

My first priority in every world since hardcore hunger was implemented is a food supply, especially if I am staying near spawn. If I find a pumpkin right off, my immediate priority is a hoe and safe place to farm.

[FlowerChild]

I believe that you have to take the whole "time cost" of branch mining in context with the other changes the mod makes along with the realities of vanilla terrain and ore generation.

You're using the concepts of "realities" extremely loosely.

Coal and iron are everywhere. You're not at the whims of the random number generator. You're just overstating your point of view.

I don't need to hear further justifications for your playstyle man. I've heard your reasoning and have already made contingency plans for how to prevent it. Now you're just spamming the thread with long rambling posts that are taking it off topic.

[morsmaestro]

With death penalties, I find creeper hunting is unadvised, seeing as they tend to kill or cripple in one shot. Most would avoid hunting creepers as the main way of killing creepers also leaves the drops outside of reach.

Shit man, that just means you don't know how to handle them.

I hunt creepers all the time. I love hunting creepers. It's skelly's that are annoying to me. And spiders I just avoid. But creepers? Piece of cake. Sprint up on one, wack it, back up, wack it again, maybe sprint at hit it a third time, and if you're at iron or above that'll generally kill it. Hell, if you're at iron or above and you're fast enough, you can kill one without ever backing up, just sprint at em, wack wack wack dead right before they explode. It's just timing, precision, and quick judgement. Knowing how hardcore movement affects both you and mobs is key too.

As for creepers in caves, I hate them, but as FC said, it's just being careful and aware of your surroundings. I'm a little pussy inside a dark cave, and I stay alive because of it.



As for the balance in general... I haven't tried early game since 4.7, but I think it should prove a fun challenge.

I still kinda wish there was a pussy mode that maybe halved hardcore iron and hardcore hunger. At some point, I just want to build rather than being distracted by survival and scraping together enough stuff to get somewhere. MC is creative for me, I'd rather it enable creativity more than necessitate grinding.

[FlowerChild]

Guys: this is a balance discussion thread to aid me in further refining the mod. I am reading every single post as a result.

This is NOT a gaemplay advice thread. It is not a thread for saying you haven't played the actual version being discussed but are looking forward to it. To be clear: don't waste my fucking time.

I was asleep for the last few hours and the thread went way out course. Banning will occur.

[Mr_Hosed]

Some more observations on 4.70.

I died rather quickly at a new HC spawn location. Didn't even make it 2 nights. Damn spider webbed me at the door. I had a stone axe, but webs are BRUTAL to hack through with it.

After respawning it looked like I was literally back at spawn. I knew of a lost base near spawn so I headed in a direction looking for it. Died, but not before determining I went the wrong way. Went the opposite direction and spotted land marks, but I was still going the long way round. Died again. Finally had an orientation and ran for the base. This time I found it.

I'd reached the iron age at this base, but I'd done it prior to 4.70 via a small branch mine at bedrock. Interesting note. I'd also raided a desert temple and had 30 gold bars stored here. At first I tried to use my stone picks in the banch mine. Yeah, not doing that again. I tore through 16 picks and barely made any progress (read no resources found).

I should note that I had zero torches or coal at this base. It was the reason for the branch mine originally (looking for coal the vanilla way). What coal I'd previously found had long since been lost during the multiple deaths I've had at this location.

I then used my gold on some swords, hoes, and a bunch of gold picks. I had no idea that gold picks are useless on anything but stone. After finding that out the hard way, I decided to just use up the gold picks to reveal some iron and coal and comeback with stone picks later. That plan, although VERY intensive on the stone picks (I think I chewed up another 24 of them gathering the iron and coal I found) it was enough to get a half stack of torches and start caving.

The cave near this base intersects with a ravine. In the past I'd just jump in and start torch spamming and cutting ledges out. This time around I was barely able to venture down to the floor of the ravine. Falling skeletons are BRUTAL with the new damage system. Combine that with having to manage my torches and needing safe havens to build more picks and there was some serious tension going on.

Felt alot like caving when I first played minecraft in beta 1.2. Always wondering what was around the next bend. Looking all over the place to avoid death from above, etc. Intense.

[FlowerChild]

I'm really wondering about the falling mobs thing and if it suits BTW. Anyways, just to say that it's on my radar and is something I'll be looking at more closely during my own play.