4.64 Balance Observations & Discussion

[Nutty]

I had completely forgotten about wood actually, I will have to start up another world and see what impact wood has on my experience.

[FlowerChild]

I had completely forgotten about wood actually, I will have to start up another world and see what impact wood has on my experience.

I just finished an extensive rebalance on it a few minutes ago, so you may want to wait for the next release.

[BobSlingblade679]

My first non-abandoned village I found had carrots. Thus, my staple food atm is kebabs. So, that's a nice bonus I didn't see before- using kebabs. Before, I had no reason to, but now, I'm really glad they're there!

Good stuff. Yeah, that was my intent with kebabs and steak and potatoes: one for people that find carrots, the other for people that find potatoes.

Glad it proved useful to you :)

As an aside, how did you feel about the stick consumption with the recipe? I assume you didn't find it overly cumbersome given the enthusiasm you expressed above, but it was a question on my mind while I developed it.

I think the cost of a stick is negligible. Compared to stews, it is much cheaper wood-wise. One log will convert to 16 sticks which is enough for 3 stacks of kebabs. I don't have a saw yet so I'm handcarving my sticks.

I think its fine. You lose the sticks but they're crazy cheap.

[0player]

Flower, did you know that fully grown pumpkin stem gives off three seed when broken? I did not until yesterday, and I see this as a potential game-breaker. Haven't got around to advanced restonery on our server yet, but I think it won't be a problem to make a farm working on this effect.

I did not actually. Thanks for the info man. I suspect I'll eliminate the seed drop entirely on them, given that's the whole point of a plant producing a fruit :)

Okay, thanks! That's what I had in mind as logical, too.
Also, I'm not sure if this is intended, but the probability of Rotten Flesh not poisoning you is quite enough to go from dying to Hungry (or Peckish, if you're lucky) with approximately three to five pieces of it. Saved my ass at least two times.

[Simurgh]

I'm finding a lot more pressure on my leather usage I've noticed. I don't know if the balance is right there but I never seem to have enough, especially considering it's non-renewable until wheat.

I have to agree with Sarudak regarding the health regen, I love the nerf to the health regen but it is really tedious to heal up by afking in a safe location, although if there was an early game method of health recovery it might ruin the satisfaction of getting potions. I personally hate the system for them but the new health system makes me want to aim towards getting a brewing stand up. Venom from cave spiders seriously hurts now, a couple hits can leave you at 1/2 heart making mineshafts actually have an element of challenge to them now.

Loving the sense of urgency I'm starting to feel to go out and explore the world, villages and ruins are major finds now. Yet to find a non-abandonded village, but I definitely feel like part of the world now and have to interact with it/explore it in order to succeed. The value to me of my base and farm system is huge, and the feeling of satisfaction on setting up a sustainable food source and some structures is great.

Pumpkins seem a lot more balanced now which stops them from being as game breaking as before. A minor observation regarding them is that a pumpkin drops 4 seeds = 2 pips hunger. Feeding them to a chicken will net you 1.5 for an egg or 2.5(?) for cooked meat, meaning that feeding your chickens can actually lose you net food depending on your luck with the eggs. I understand that this is probably a problem with the minimum amount of hunger restored being 0.5 though. The added pressure on fuel also makes you consider your options a bit more seriously regarding that until you get established.

The early game pressure on resources is great, making me have to think about what I'm doing, come up with my own objectives/priorities and how to get there. Emergent gameplay ftw :)

[Niyu]

A minor observation regarding them is that a pumpkin drops 4 seeds = 2 pips hunger. Feeding them to a chicken will net you 1.5 for an egg or 2.5(?) for cooked meat, meaning that feeding your chickens can actually lose you net food depending on your luck with the eggs.

But you get 1 egg for each seed,don't you? so you will have 6 pips worth of food if you get 4 eggs and 10 pips if you get 4 chickens.

[BobSlingblade679]

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I'm finding a lot more pressure on my leather usage I've noticed. I don't know if the balance is right there but I never seem to have enough, especially considering it's non-renewable until wheat.

I have to agree with Sarudak regarding the health regen, I love the nerf to the health regen but it is really tedious to heal up by afking in a safe location, although if there was an early game method of health recovery it might ruin the satisfaction of getting potions. I personally hate the system for them but the new health system makes me want to aim towards getting a brewing stand up. Venom from cave spiders seriously hurts now, a couple hits can leave you at 1/2 heart making mineshafts actually have an element of challenge to them now.

Loving the sense of urgency I'm starting to feel to go out and explore the world, villages and ruins are major finds now. Yet to find a non-abandonded village, but I definitely feel like part of the world now and have to interact with it/explore it in order to succeed. The value to me of my base and farm system is huge, and the feeling of satisfaction on setting up a sustainable food source and some structures is great.

Pumpkins seem a lot more balanced now which stops them from being as game breaking as before. A minor observation regarding them is that a pumpkin drops 4 seeds = 2 pips hunger. Feeding them to a chicken will net you 1.5 for an egg or 2.5(?) for cooked meat, meaning that feeding your chickens can actually lose you net food depending on your luck with the eggs. I understand that this is probably a problem with the minimum amount of hunger restored being 0.5 though. The added pressure on fuel also makes you consider your options a bit more seriously regarding that until you get established.

The early game pressure on resources is great, making me have to think about what I'm doing, come up with my own objectives/priorities and how to get there. Emergent gameplay ftw :)

Actually, I think poison spiders are ridiculously op now. Before the changes they were manageable. I ran into a spawner a couple days ago and got to it after a couple spiders spawned. I got hit once and the poison dropped me down to either hurt or dying (not sure). So, I made fences and killed the spiders through the fence as I placed fences right in front of each other till I got to the spawner. I didn't make it. One got through after about thirty minutes and killed me (spiders are tough when you slap them with a stone sword while wounded or worse).

If they're meant to be something you avoid till you get health potions, then maybe I can see that, but using what I felt like to a smart but cowardly approach and it being my only option felt lame.

[Nikkentobi]

Actually, I think poison spiders are ridiculously op now. Before the changes they were manageable. I ran into a spawner a couple days ago and got to it after a couple spiders spawned. I got hit once and the poison dropped me down to either hurt or dying (not sure). So, I made fences and killed the spiders through the fence as I placed fences right in front of each other till I got to the spawner. I didn't make it. One got through after about thirty minutes and killed me (spiders are tough when you slap them with a stone sword while wounded or worse).

If they're meant to be something you avoid till you get health potions, then maybe I can see that, but using what I felt like to a smart but cowardly approach and it being my only option felt lame.

First of all, i'm kinda new to BTW, I've only started playing BTW since the 4.3 version, but i never went back to playing vanilla ever since.... Thanks FC for making this great mod.
Anyway, i'm of the same of opinion with Bob... mob's status attack (poison and wither) feels a bit OP right now...

[BobSlingblade679]

Actually, I think poison spiders are ridiculously op now. Before the changes they were manageable. I ran into a spawner a couple days ago and got to it after a couple spiders spawned. I got hit once and the poison dropped me down to either hurt or dying (not sure). So, I made fences and killed the spiders through the fence as I placed fences right in front of each other till I got to the spawner. I didn't make it. One got through after about thirty minutes and killed me (spiders are tough when you slap them with a stone sword while wounded or worse).

If they're meant to be something you avoid till you get health potions, then maybe I can see that, but using what I felt like to a smart but cowardly approach and it being my only option felt lame.

First of all, i'm kinda new to BTW, I've only started playing BTW since the 4.3 version, but i never went back to playing vanilla ever since.... Thanks FC for making this great mod.
Anyway, i'm of the same of opinion with Bob... mob's status attack (poison and wither) feels a bit OP right now...

Actually, I have no problem with wither skeletons. The problem with the cave spiders is that they're small and pounce at you which even if you're swinging, they usually hit you anyway. Wither skeletons aren't much harder than zombies to avoid being hit and since they're three blocks tall they're much easier to manage- just make 2-block-high walkways.

[FlowerChild]

When someone uses "OP", it tells me something:

That they say overpowered so often that they feel the need to use an acronym to save themselves time. Thus, they use it lightly.

If a monster is too tough for you to deal with at your current stage of development (like when you admit to beating on it with a stone sword), then perhaps fleeing and coming back later is an option to consider? Why is it that you feel you must be able to defeat this monster and defeat it now, especially when it's the most dangerous thing you're likely to encounter in the overworld?

If you're able to use creative solutions to defeat it earlier, more power to you. However, I do not consider the expectation that the player will be able to defeat absolutely anything at any time, with little to no problem solving or preparation, to be a valid one. That's vanilla talking.

[Sarudak]

I believe milk can still be used to clear status effects so it's not like you've exhausted all your options available at that tech level.

EDIT: You also could have tunneled under the spawner and destroyed it from safety. There are so many options available to a player in a game like this.

[BobSlingblade679]

When someone uses "OP", it tells me something:

That they say overpowered so often that they feel the need to use an acronym to save themselves time. Thus, they use it lightly.

If a monster is too tough for you to deal with at your current stage of development (like when you admit to beating on it with a stone sword), then perhaps fleeing and coming back later is an option to consider? Why is it that you feel you must be able to defeat this monster and defeat it now, especially when it's the most dangerous thing you're likely to encounter in the overworld?

If you're able to use creative solutions to defeat it earlier, more power to you. However, I do not consider the expectation that the player will be able to defeat absolutely anything at any time, with little to no problem solving or preparation, to be a valid one. That's vanilla talking.

I feel I should kill it cuz its in my way and I'm a stubborn barbarian. :P
I tend to force myself into difficult situations to have the satisfaction of saying I pulled it off.

But my point was that they're in the overworld and happen to be the most difficult non-boss mob in the game. The small size, pounce, and poison make for just a single spider being a great challenge. If we're supposed to have the mindset that its a 'higher level' fight then I will, of course, accept that, but it didn't occur to me when I was fighting them.

[FlowerChild]

EDIT: You also could have tunneled under the spawner and destroyed it from safety. There are so many options available to a player in a game like this.

Yup. Or channeled lava into the area...picked off the spiders from a distance with a bow...walled off the spawner so the spiders couldn't get out...

But I guess he didn't like any of those options because they were "cowardly", and feels deep down that as the player he should be able to kill anything he pleases at any time.

If my changes are causing people to actually have to think about how they're going to deal with certain monsters in terms other than just left clicking on them, then I'm ecstatic. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: MC combat sucks, and it's not the strength of the game.

But my point was that they're in the overworld and happen to be the most difficult non-boss mob in the game. The small size, pounce, and poison make for just a single spider being a great challenge. If we're supposed to have the mindset that its a 'higher level' fight then I will, of course, accept that, but it didn't occur to me when I was fighting them.

That's a very weird way of thinking to me.

"The monster is there. It's too tough for you to handle. What do you do?" seems to be the only thing that needs to be considered here.

If they were just popping up out of nowhere and killing the player entirely arbitrarily, I could see that being a problem. But in my experience, I've always seen or heard a cave spider spawner a mile off, and thus have had ample opportunity to head the other way if I so choose, or approach it in a cautious manner. Add to that, that I've chosen as a player to explore abandoned mine shafts to begin with, and thus should expect danger.

If you *needed* to kill the cave spiders to get some resource in order to progress further in the game, and doing so with the technology available at that point was exceedingly difficult then, again, I'd see a problem there. But, you don't need anything the spiders have, so why are you hell bent on their destruction?

Just leave the poor spiders alone :)

[BobSlingblade679]

But I guess he didn't like any of those options because they were "cowardly", and feels deep down that as the player he should be able to kill anything he pleases at any time.

If my changes are causing people to actually have to think about how they're going to deal with certain monsters in terms other than just left clicking on them, then I'm ecstatic. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: MC combat sucks, and it's not the strength of the game.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm too use to action/rpg's I guess.

I just wanted to point it out cuz I felt it was a concern. Fighting them reminded me just how punishing the health changes are. I don't mean to say I don't like the direction you're taking the game, because of course I do, it was just the first time I ran into something where I REALLY had to adjust and wasn't mentally prepared for it.

[Simurgh]

A minor observation regarding them is that a pumpkin drops 4 seeds = 2 pips hunger. Feeding them to a chicken will net you 1.5 for an egg or 2.5(?) for cooked meat, meaning that feeding your chickens can actually lose you net food depending on your luck with the eggs.

But you get 1 egg for each seed,don't you? so you will have 6 pips worth of food if you get 4 eggs and 10 pips if you get 4 chickens.

I'll blame that on a brain fart :/

Regarding the spiderfest, yeah cave spiders are harder but theyre defo do-able with a bit of brain power. They actually make conquering a mine system a challenge which is a Good Thing. And the screeching before you get anywhere near them gives you a clear chance to head in a different direction and save them till later if you like.

[Nelgoth]

I really like the coal changes and the feeling of needing to go outside to chop fire wood to fuel my pre coal furnaces. It could still be nerfed more in my opinion, but I am thinking along the lines of how happy you are when you find bituminous coal in dwarf fortress, so perhaps this is too brutal for the average player. Also, something feels off with furnaces, they are just too easy to construct and maintain for how useful they are. I love the idea of Kilns getting more action/attention.

On a slightly different note, I know it has been brought up at least one place on these forums, but I wish that my left click actions strained me more than walking/running (maybe not more, but you get the point) Walking to the trees to chop them down costs me more hunger than actually chopping them down. Just my feelings on a current topic.

This leads me back in to food and hunger. After three separate early game play throughs with HCH, I still do not feel as pressured into foraging for food and building my farm as I think I should. I have noticed that this may be largely due to fishing (plus the local fauna seems to breed like rabbits and it doesn't help that the little fuckers follow me around like I'm fucking Snow White, despite me picking them off one by one like my name is bo-fucking-jangles. I mean fuck, I'm wearing your family as a hat, run the fuck away you speccy bowl hair cut fuck square-to-go-likes.) Hmm, I digress, point being, it seems fishing is easily abused. I have been able to fish dozens of fish using just one fishing rod. Perhaps requiring some precious iron for the fishing rod and making the rods break faster?

Count this last bit as a side observation and if you are tired of my ranting, skip it. This is an observation regarding hardcore spawning, I personally love the level of fear and trauma that it adds to the game. Of all the hardcore modes added, this one smells of gunpowder, gasoline, and testosterone (Three of my favorite things. Next to chain saws, beer, and fire) However, my wiener-faced friends and their big, floppy, prolapsed vaginas keep whining about how hard it is, and then they rage quit like Kim Jong-un when his tiny dick missile falls short of Austin because Texas is so fucking huge (sorry Mexico, and thanks for all the chimichangas). I wish that there was some sort of compromise mode in which we could play, because I feel that turning it completely off breaks a large part of the mechanics put in place. Though, if this mode is ever added, I would hope that is called "Bitch Spawning Mode" so my friends can all feel adequately emasculated when they play with it. I only mention this because I have observed 5 separate individuals pick up the mod and play over the last few months and then quit due to the above. I would rank them as intermediate to hardcore gamers. (Worst case scenario as afix, I will just turn it off all together and use an editor to make the spawn zone 300 miles away, this will also get us back in to high way and rail creation mode because currently the true random spawn removes that aspect.)

Gah, sorry for this being so long. You would think after working a 16 hour day in the office I would shut the fuck up sooner. Thanks again for all the updates.

[FlowerChild]

Count this last bit as a side observation and if you are tired of my ranting, skip it. This is an observation regarding hardcore spawning, I personally love the level of fear and trauma that it adds to the game. Of all the hardcore modes added, this one smells of gunpowder, gasoline, and testosterone (Three of my favorite things. Next to chain saws, beer, and fire) However, my wiener-faced friends and their big, floppy, prolapsed vaginas keep whining about how hard it is, and then they rage quit like Kim Jong-un when his tiny dick missile falls short of Austin because Texas is so fucking huge (sorry Mexico, and thanks for all the chimichangas). I wish that there was some sort of compromise mode in which we could play, because I feel that turning it completely off breaks a large part of the mechanics put in place. Though, if this mode is ever added, I would hope that is called "Bitch Spawning Mode" so my friends can all feel adequately emasculated when they play with it. I only mention this because I have observed 5 separate individuals pick up the mod and play over the last few months and then quit due to the above. I would rank them as intermediate to hardcore gamers. (Worst case scenario as afix, I will just turn it off all together and use an editor to make the spawn zone 300 miles away, this will also get us back in to high way and rail creation mode because currently the true random spawn removes that aspect.)

No. Your friends are pussies. Get new ones.

Also, if you want to remain on these forums, don't post suggestions outside of the suggestion sub-forum. To be on the safe side, just don't post suggestions. You'll also want to keep posts to these balance observations threads succinct, which the above was far from.

As for HC Spawn devaluing rails: That was a worry of mine originally too, but I really don't think so. Original spawn still acts as a central hub you tend to find your way back to after death, thus the value of having a rail line extending from there remains.

[Minecraftgeek70]

My normal gameplay "technique" was to start a map.. find the nearest tree. punch it black and blue (or brown and green I suppose) then make some rudimentary tools and mine into a cliff face. I would then fashion a furnace and cook me up some charcoal and bingo.. no more dark nights. it's the way I played for some time and I have to say it was a lazy habit I got into. I even used to favor seeds that planted me in / next to villages so I didn't even need to build my own mud shack. I RARELY worried about coal

then along comes Flowerchild and tips my comfortable little boring world upside down. I had got into some seriously lazy habits and this has dumped a well needed bucket of cold water over me and motivated me to make some changes to my play style.

for example. My last play the seed spawned me next to a desert village, a desert temple AND a jungle temple all within a wolf's dung ejections distance from spawn XD I naturally plundered the temples, occupied the village and was mostly comfortable from night one. while I had some hours invested in this map I opted to re-create it under the latest BTW version to experience the differences. (same seed just a new regen'd world)

I'm still living in the (now) deserted village but the only light I have at the moment is the light from my furnace. I sit there, shivering in my cold stone shell burning saplings. cooking anything and everything to keep the fire burning. The seed which was so easy to play previously now was more of a struggle. Stuck between a jungle and a desert I had a problem finding coal. But when I did oh how happy I was.

I don't find the changes too problematic once I'd readjusted my expectations. I like how (as stated above) I need to chop wood now to heat my home and cook my food. In the "real world" I'd be a tree feller long before I became a coal miner ! so this feels so natural now. Coal is the driving force behind the Victorian steam powered industrial revolution and now I feel an inkling of that when i find some. I hoard it, it's precious, only to be used sparingly. Sure I use SOME to make torches but not hundreds as I used to. Slowly and carefully I venture down into caves and mine shafts and into the stygian gloom of my mines.

Besides.. it's safer! Who needs an open flame light source with all that coal dust around anyway? XD ;p

Love it FC.. keep up the epic work !!

[Shengji]

Tall jungle trees can be spotted a country mile away, provide a really good, easy shelter for the night (for the players who like to twiddle their thumbs till morning) - just nip up the vines till you reach the leaves and batter the top logs down till you can get in.

They are a safe source of stacks of wood and grow right up to the edge of their biome so you don't even need to clamber over all the leaves to reach them.

While felling a giant oak tree is one of my most hated tasks in minecraft, the fiddlyness and the skills required over and above felling the small trees balances nicely with the abundance of resource. The jungle trees however do not feel properly in balance to me.

[Minecraftgeek70]

While felling a giant oak tree is one of my most hated tasks in minecraft, the fiddlyness and the skills required over and above felling the small trees balances nicely with the abundance of resource. The jungle trees however do not feel properly in balance to me.

I concur. It's a matter of some ease to get many stacks of wood with simple equipment (or even just a fist if you're a sadist!) from a jungle tree(s) using the top down approach you specified. But I wholeheartedly agree it's too easy to get loads of wood from a giant jungle tree which , previously, meant 10 mins farming trees and then cooking the logs in a furnace meant I had stacks upon stacks of charcoal which negated the need for me to hunt for it. FC's changes means , yes ok I can do that still... but not until I have a kiln. I like the reasoning behind it. I still have loads of wood/logs but now I use a large percentage of it for fuel directly as well as in fabrication of building materials etc.

I don't want to make a suggestion (so this isn't.. I hope.. merely an observation) but Jungle wood is normally "hardwood" and wouldn't hardwood be harder to chop down.. IRL Mahogany is much more tricky to fell than nice "soft" Pine wood.

[ion]

really guys, about the the jungle wood? can't you just don't chop it instead at going to Fc to fix it.
anyway OT: i managed to make a good sedentary life, farming and all going until SFS without finding a village. pumpkin farms, mushrooms and chickens. strange i got kibble, but i wasn't able to get the pigs to my pens without carrots. ( minecarts were an option). anyway i've made only one iron pickaxe and all the rest of mining was done by using stone tools, they have a good durability for what they are worth. and i just waited spending iron until SFS became an option.once i get to the nether i have access to SFS so i just waited for mattock and battle axe instead of spending the nuggets into the iron armor or tools. the leather armour made at the first stages was good and lasted enough time for it to be worth the killing spree.
now i made another new world.

[Minecraftgeek70]

really guys, about the the jungle wood? can't you just don't chop it instead at going to Fc to fix it.

?? Sorry friend, I think you misunderstand I'm not asking FC to fix it! I'm more than very happy with the way FC has changed the game for the better. if he wants or doesn't want to change something he will.. I was just stating that prior to 4.64 it was WAAAY too easy to get tonnes of charcoal which FC has expertly fixed already. if I made sounds to the contrary I apologise to both you and FC for perhaps sounding more negative than I meant to.

but I agree about the armor stuff.. I have "rediscovered" the joy of leather armor again XD I have a little iron stockpile which I might make a mail breastplate or something with.. I too have ditched my old world and regenerated the exact same seed and playing from scratch again here. much fun to be had all over again XD

[NotEvenOdd]

Actually, I think poison spiders are ridiculously op now. Before the changes they were manageable. I ran into a spawner a couple days ago and got to it after a couple spiders spawned. I got hit once and the poison dropped me down to either hurt or dying (not sure). So, I made fences and killed the spiders through the fence as I placed fences right in front of each other till I got to the spawner. I didn't make it. One got through after about thirty minutes and killed me (spiders are tough when you slap them with a stone sword while wounded or worse).

If they're meant to be something you avoid till you get health potions, then maybe I can see that, but using what I felt like to a smart but cowardly approach and it being my only option felt lame.

I agree that cave spiders are pretty difficult to deal with, especially if you want to spare the spawner for a mob trap but if you're prepared enough (i.e. health potions, armour and water to keep them back) it's a nice, satisfying challenge. It takes more than just brawn.

[Shengji]

really guys, about the the jungle wood? can't you just don't chop it instead at going to Fc to fix it.

So, you get to "go to FC" about things you find unbalanced, but I don't? Maybe you could just "don't use" stone tools rather than providing your feedback on a subject FC has already told us he is rebalancing. Or are you worried your cheatwood will be made less convenient to collect?

My feedback is in no way a threat to you because:

1) Flowerchild rarely misses things - I don't doubt he already knows all the ins and outs of Jungle trees. If he hadn't directly asked for feedback, I wouldn't have provided it, but he did so I did.

2)My feedback is given with no strings attached. If FC chooses to act on my opinion, I don't claim some form of ownership of his ideas. I don't expect anything in return for my feedback, I don't expect even for my opinion to even be acknowledged - something everyone seems to forget around here. If FC chooses not to act on my feedback, I drop it. Look at my idea with the torches going out in the rain. I mentioned it a year ago. It made FC think but he decided in the end not to go with it. I brought it up again recently because there was a thread asking us to guess what a new feature may be, and I knew he had been interested in that idea. I only defended my choice of guess, I did not try to push my original idea again, though I did call out everybody who told me how crap an idea it was based on theoretical wankery by explaining quite carefully that as the only person with actual experience of this mode, being that I had implemented my own add-on for it, I don't think their opinion means jack. What I'm getting at, is that my opinion has been given and I will not try to manipulate FC into changing anything based on my opinion. I have several ideas, but I will not ever mention them unless directly asked, or I believe the idea is dripping in so much manna that even God would masturbate over it. Not that I believe FC is the type to be easily manipulated anyway, if anything it would drive him in the opposite direction.

Sorry about the off topic rant, but reading through this thread and the others like it again has really pissed me off because barely anybody seems to respect what is being asked of them and why.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I'm a bit late perhaps, but the problem with cave spiders is a metagame one, I could kill them without even getting hit once in 1.2, but after the merge of ssp and smp it is usually impossible.

But honestly, in a tight easily controlled environment no mob is ever a problem, wither boss and enderdragon aside. You can mould the terrain any way you like, they only play by very specific rules. No sweat.

Imho, the recent changes to health food armour etc have a much larger impact in outdoors combat, where you can be surrounded, swarmed, and you cannot block a corridor with blocks and hit their feet ;]

Otherwise, this is minecraft, play like minecraft, not diablo :P