The potential of lighting

[Foxy Boxes]

But if you have a mobtrap it would be impractical to even attempt at lighting up all the caves without a cheap source of light.

Make a bigger mobtrap. Then stuck your base right in the centre. Any mobs that spawn are part of your mobtrap, and any intruders have to go through your mobtrap to get to you.

[ion]

again theoretical thinking:
it would work if the new lamp would have a big radius of light. as it is now a torch has a light level of 14 and glowstone redstone lamps pumpkins have only 15. just 1 more it isn't enough to make them useful in survival. the biggest benefit of a torch is that it let's you move through it the rest are just full blocks. so that little 1 more light level is negated as you need to place it one level below on surfaces so you are able to move around. remember that monsters can spawn at level 7 or lower and thus a radius of a torch or lamp is very limited to be any use ( talking about vanilla)
the addition of fuel lamps pipes etc , that is a drawback from the torches, needs to be compensated by a higher radius of useful light radius of fuel lamps. this is just a mojang design that is flawed and makes us spam torches everywhere.

[johnt]

I think timers would be 'not fun', but how about this -- A) slimes put out torches if they plop within a block of them and B) rain storms spawn slimes in all biomes.

[The Phoenixian]

I do have a concern with the proposal in the opening post.

If we go with this idea and make the lighting system nice and complex, how many other mechanics can a player handle? I can see myself dealing with this mechanic and also building automated systems in a small base, so long as they don't have maintenance requirements of their own, but as the base gets large and I have more things to keep track of, I get the feeling that light maintenance is going to make itself felt really quickly. Of course, the all important caveat here is "exactly how much work is required to make an automated setup".

And as a side effect of this, there's also questions of "what else is tied to lighting that will itself be made more expensive" People have already mentioned Mob traps taking a large hit and I'd estimate it would take at.

However if it's a fight to defend your base from the darkness you want, I'm curious as to how effective another mechanic would be to accomplish this same aesthetic:
If we were to introduce mechanic such that, in order to reach the more powerful or prettier forms of lighting you had to do something that would cause Monsters to spawn at higher light levels than they used to, and in so doing, make your prebuilt torch defenses weaker and possibly full of dangerous holes when you go back to them, Would that accomplish the same idea that your original proposal did Sarudak?

Obviously of course, it's less... "hardcore" I suppose would be the term?... the fight wouldn't be as constant, likely done only a few times on each world, and the informed player could easily make preparations in advance but you would still have to be careful in going back to old bases and it also seems like something that one would be able to have more projects in their world alongside.

One potential alternative to lighting up caves is to instead half-slab caves. Difficult, but likely easier than setting up a line of gas-fueled lamps along your cave network.

A note on the scale of what is required: A quick bit of math shows me that a torch will keep 85 blocks free from mob spawns (Assuming it's out in the open on a on a level plane). In a cave I'd estimate you'll be using torches at an eighth (in a mineshaft) to 2/5ths of that efficiency so if you want to halfslab all that out, I'd guess your going to need between 13 and 34 times as many halfslabs as you had torches. For an actual use example, in a mineshaft I'll usually put one torch in each section, each of which is made up of 13 blocks (12 for the passage + 1 between the support beam) If I have to halfslab that out, now I'm using a stack of material to prevent the same about of mob spawning where before I used only 5 torches. Seeing as I'll usually go through a stack or so of torches on a caving expedition and it takes multiple expeditions to bring the efficiency of the mob trap up to full capacity you quickly get an idea of just how much extra work will be required.


Now on a different note that was brought up in this topic: Changing torches so that they're less effective tools, possibly by adding brighter light sources. Rather than raising the maximum light level light sources can provide, perhaps it would be simpler to make mobs spawn at light level 0 (Or perhaps 1 or 2 if that would cause problems) and lowering the output of torches such that they are effectively the same, but there is now new room for more powerful sources.

[Folrig]

I really like the whole "torches don't last forever" thing. It feels more intuitive. The progression is cool too. Going from a system that the player needs to babysit to a system the only needs occasional monitoring. Though in a lighting scheme such as this I think a personal/carryable light would be crucial.

In this hypothetical lighting world would you leave magical lighting via redstone intact (albeit more expensive), or would the magical lighting be independent of everything, even eachother?

[Rianaru]

Just want to put my two cents in here...having torches go out over time sounds like it could change the game in a way that would make it less fun. I'm not the most driven player in terms of sticking with a single project and doing nothing else until its completion, but I definitely dislike the idea of having to stop my project just to prevent monsters from spawning over and over again. I might be over-estimating the despawn time that you guys have been discussing, but I'd think that something more along the lines of only going out if they're outside in the rain or snow or something. Maybe torches could be just enough to stop monsters from spawning over a few blocks, but not really provide any sort of meaningful lighting as far as aesthetics or the player being able to see anything is concerned. Either that, or like some other people have been suggesting, making higher tier light sources have much higher light levels. I'm just a little concerned that the game would become a torch spam taking up way too much of the players time and resources until they got to a tech level in which they could produce higher levels of lighting.

[Folrig]

Just want to put my two cents in here...

I think you're assuming you would be playing in this hypothetical world as you currently do in MC. What if torches always had a limited lifespan? I think peoples playstyles would have conformed accordingly. Big projects in survival would be much fewer. Compounds would be smaller and defensive structures more common. People would thInk and plan differently.

[StarsintheSky]

What about torches as tools that cast light from the player, only? Think Don't Starve's limited durability torches that burn out in your hand over time.

I know I've seen dynamic lights done by at least a couple mod-makers, AtomicStryker for one, so the precedent is set.

Imagine starting a new world and collecting the materials for your campfire and the torch you hold in your hand in preparation for a dark night under the stars. After getting established, it's time to go cave-hopping.

Perhaps you'd need to be able to set the torch down for a time to illuminate the rock face you're cutting into. Make the torch a non-stackable, tool-type item that can be placed as an entity. Now you've got something akin to a road flare. Carry it to light your way, toss it in a corner to battle the hordes, drop it down a shaft to illuminate the bottom.

Now, add a lantern. Similar idea, tool-type, non-stackable, consumes durability/"fuel", can be placed as an entity, and you've got your second tier of mobile light. Instead of crafting a few torches to burn your way through a short cave run, you've got a lantern and a jug/bag/bundle of fuel to carry down deep into the earth. However, you've still only got one or two to work with; any more gets prohibitively expensive and requires micro-management that just isn't practical for the lone adventurer.

What about permanent light sources, though? How can we ever advance without a guarantee against mob spawns? That's where things like campfires with a higher fuel capacity, stationary lamps/lanterns, and finally the gas lamps come into play.

I think that turning lights into another automated supply chain puzzle and reworking the way light is important to the basic gameplay are two very distinct problems that require two very distinct solutions perhaps some fundamental paradigm shifts with regards to how we use light in Minecraft.

[Rianaru]

Just want to put my two cents in here...

I think you're assuming you would be playing in this hypothetical world as you currently do in MC. What if torches always had a limited lifespan? I think peoples playstyles would have conformed accordingly. Big projects in survival would be much fewer. Compounds would be smaller and defensive structures more common. People would thInk and plan differently.

That's the thing. I view big construction projects as one of the great things about Minecraft in general, especially with BTW. I think by nerfing basic lighting in the way that's being discussed, it would discourage many people from playing the game because it's the main reason that a lot of people have for playing Minecraft, including myself. I think every world other than my first has at least five buildings that are bigger than 20x20, even before I found BTW, just as an example.

[Shengji]

That's the thing. I view big construction projects as one of the great things about Minecraft in general, especially with BTW. I think by nerfing basic lighting in the way that's being discussed, it would discourage many people from playing the game because it's the main reason that a lot of people have for playing Minecraft, including myself. I think every world other than my first has at least five buildings that are bigger than 20x20, even before I found BTW, just as an example.

This is exactly what I discovered when I attempted an intermediary step between my version of hardcore torches and a permanent solution, though I wasn't discouraged from play, I was encouraged to rush through the tech levels, which reduces the fun of BTW greatly. This is why I went with the light block as the top tier of lighting in my version. Sure it stops you from tackling those big builds until you have nether access but that early game, the struggle for survival before mastery is fun precisely because it is difficult. And in the hour or so it takes you to get nether access, you have to be cautious.

(The following statement is not any kind of suggestion or criticism of BTW)
The fact that mining lightstone is a somewhat unique resource to mine is in my opinion overlooked in Vanilla and to a lesser extent in BTW. I believe the natural progression to BTW would have been to make lightstone more important in some way anyway because of the unique challenges in gathering the resource and the variation in gameplay it presents. Currently, without my HC lighting mining a chunk of the stuff sees me a long way through the game, moreso than any other resource. One of the bonuses of my HC lighting is that I am forced to go to the nether and mine in order to light my bases, I consider the diversity in play that offers a good thing and fun. And yes I agree it is riddiculous to have to set up light blocks in a strip mine or during cave exploration, which is why torches will always have a use and never be completely replaced.

[Folrig]

Just want to put my two cents in here...

I think you're assuming you would be playing in this hypothetical world as you currently do in MC. What if torches always had a limited lifespan? I think peoples playstyles would have conformed accordingly. Big projects in survival would be much fewer. Compounds would be smaller and defensive structures more common. People would thInk and plan differently.

That's the thing. I view big construction projects as one of the great things about Minecraft in general, especially with BTW. I think by nerfing basic lighting in the way that's being discussed, it would discourage many people from playing the game because it's the main reason that a lot of people have for playing Minecraft, including myself. I think every world other than my first has at least five buildings that are bigger than 20x20, even before I found BTW, just as an example.

That's a fair statment. However, I think your mindset is still "I would have to change my gameplay from 'x' to 'y'". Where my question becomes: What if torches always had a lifespan? What if gameplay was always "y"?

Do you think people would still have quit early because they couldn't build large structures? I wonder if large structures would be seen as a reward for reaching a certain tech level.

[Robilar]

I think if I were to go about torch burnout, I'd do it something akin to the way tree growth works, but on a slightly longer scale; a set time that the torch will last at least for, then it's just a matter of time until it burns out, but you never know when. To compound onto that with the relighting of torches or however one wants to work it, I'd make torches irrecoverable, so in order to "relight" a torch, one simply pops off the burnt out one and replaces it with a fresh one.

This would mean, to me, that if one were to light up a cave or your base for the first time, you'd be golden for at least an hour or two of play, but then after awhile your torches start to burn out, one by one. After a good MC month, you'd end up with a completely random burn out from your torches, seeing as the staggered timers would mean you have no idea which one would burn out next. However, in order for this to not become obnoxious, I'd prefer it if maybe 2-4% of the torches in any given area would burn out over the course of a night. This means an abandoned area (I have such areas that I've not stepped in for well over two rl years) would eventually go completely black, giving you the feel of a broken down base, but an active base would be sustainable.

It only takes one torch burning out (usually) for a few mobs to spawn, and I think that's what we're going for here; your base is not impervious, it's just your best shot.

As for jack-o-lanterns, let them revert to pumpkins when they burn out. For glowstone, I'd leave it completely as-is. I've tried using glowstone to light up my base, and it's such an obscene amount that my nether is bare, and I can light up maybe half my buildings with it.

Before I babble too long, the note of big construction also makes sense here. You'll have relatively unhindered construction when you begin for maybe a MC week, but then you have to be wary since you never know which torch is going to burn out and the mobs are going to come pouring out of the darkness; and last I checked, Steve hasn't yet mastered Magic Missile.

[Wafflewaffle]

In the other thread about the pickless server a screenshoot was posted with a long bridge over a dark valley. Thats what minecraft lighting system should do. I dont think the method of lightning matter as much as how and why we put torches every where. The player gets rewarded by spammimg a cheap torch on the ground with full safety from hostiles. The way best way to counter that is to raise the cost of spammable light and punish spaming. Sure that hurts mob farming but we all know that our farms are the product of code restrictions and not of clever traping placement or construction.

Traps should be traps and darkness should always present threat.

[Zhil]

What would be interesting is torches going out if you don't stay near them. That way, the places you visit regularly keep their torchlight. Imagine it's actually Steve routinely relighting torches when he passes by, without having to actually do it. You get the benefits of your proposed game-play, without the hassle.

It will result in the darkness slowly encroaching on you, until only a small bastion of light remains. Building a bridge over a valley is still a valid approach in that case, since it's easy to recapture a bridge, knocking enemies off. Lighting a huge area around your base for a building project would work, but after a while, the torches will slowly burn out.

[Sarudak]

I don't like the idea of relighting the torches. If you can relight them without adding fuel why would they go out in the first place. I really want it to be a resources game too not just about time/hassle.

[Zhil]

I don't like the idea of relighting the torches. If you can relight them without adding fuel why would they go out in the first place. I really want it to be a resources game too not just about time/hassle.

Well, I didn't talk about relighting them. I guess they would just disappear?

[Sarudak]

Imagine it's actually Steve routinely relighting torches when he passes by

Well, I didn't talk about relighting them.

*scratches head*

[Folrig]

Imagine it's actually Steve routinely relighting torches when he passes by

Well, I didn't talk about relighting them.

*scratches head*

...Gill...

See, Sarudak, you just don't understand.

You aret relighting the torches. Steve is...with pretend.

[nmarshall23]

What would be interesting is torches going out if you don't stay near them. That way, the places you visit regularly keep their torchlight. Imagine it's actually Steve routinely relighting torches when he passes by, without having to actually do it. You get the benefits of your proposed game-play, without the hassle.

It will result in the darkness slowly encroaching on you, until only a small bastion of light remains. Building a bridge over a valley is still a valid approach in that case, since it's easy to recapture a bridge, knocking enemies off. Lighting a huge area around your base for a building project would work, but after a while, the torches will slowly burn out.

I really like this idea. How close should you have to be, to relight them? How far away for them to start to burn out?
I'd also want a real resource intensive way to banish mobs from an area. Maybe a new type of beacon.

The limitation is going to be how chunks are loaded and unloaded.. Time to browse the code.

[Rianaru]

Spoiler

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What would be interesting is torches going out if you don't stay near them. That way, the places you visit regularly keep their torchlight. Imagine it's actually Steve routinely relighting torches when he passes by, without having to actually do it. You get the benefits of your proposed game-play, without the hassle.

It will result in the darkness slowly encroaching on you, until only a small bastion of light remains. Building a bridge over a valley is still a valid approach in that case, since it's easy to recapture a bridge, knocking enemies off. Lighting a huge area around your base for a building project would work, but after a while, the torches will slowly burn out.

I really like this idea. How close should you have to be, to relight them? How far away for them to start to burn out?
I'd also want a real resource intensive way to banish mobs from an area. Maybe a new type of beacon.

The limitation is going to be how chunks are loaded and unloaded.. Time to browse the code.

Seconded. It seems like Gil's idea is accomplishing what the OP was looking for(areas that you abandon will go dark and be infested with monsters) without inhibiting player activity within a frequently used area(s).

[StarsintheSky]

See TerraFirmaCraft's "spawn protection" which is based on the amount of time you spend in a chunk. Regardless of the light level, eventually, mobs stop spawning with the spawn protection. Obviously this would ruin mob traps but it's at least an example of a similar: time in area = safety from mobs without torch spamming.

[BlackCat]

I want my lights to be fueled by unicorn blood.

Jus sayin'.

[Caboose]

What if we looked at this the other way around? What if, instead of making light sources weaker, one introduced *dark* sources? As in, a mob or something else that lowers light levels around it in the same way that torches raise light levels? Imagine a creature that, instead of attacking you directly, targets your torches and shrouds them, blocking out their light without destroying them. This system would be, IMO, more interesting than torches that time out because instead of just going around replacing torches, you could design ways of protecting your light sources from the 'Shades'.

I think just giving Mobs the ability to seek out and destroy torches would make for a similar gameplay mechanic with an "invasion" twist. One mob spawns, starts destroying torches, and then more mobs spawn, which makes more spawning space, and so on. Caving could become more dangerous as mobs follow the torches back to you or the base. Your lit up valley gets darkened as mobs destroy torches over time, and suddenly you have zombies knocking on your doors. I would hope it'd encourage building walls and make lighting up your base properly a priority, as well as collecting glowstone.

Of course, there are a few issues with this idea, one being that apparently it's impractical to have a block attract entities like mobs, two, mobs are too freaking weak to be any real threat even after freeing up spawning space, and three, it might get a little too metagame-y measuring light levels and setting up torch grids.

[haphazardnuke]

*disclaimer* it's been a while since I looked at MC code, any following statements are based on memory or in-game end-user experiences.

giving Mobs the ability to seek out and destroy torches would make for a similar gameplay mechanic with an "invasion" twist

Hmm, zombies smacking torches like they break doors could be interesting, but early on, when you're just lighting a small area around a dirt camp and dreaming of castles, zombies destroying all your torches during the night would be an irritating setback, to be sure.

apparently it's impractical to have a block attract entities like mobs

Well, yes, but there's already code in place for mobs being attracted to light sources (just put a torch down in the dark when cows and things are around to see this), so it might be feasible. I don't know.

mobs are too freaking weak to be any real threat

Not much to debate there, although I have found HC Movement can really affect a fight. I'm actively deciding on which direction to knock back mobs while trying to remember if the ground behind me would slow me down.

--metagame concerns--

There will always be people who metagame, and there will always be people who don't. I just look at a room and ask myself if I think it is bright enough. Since I play on Moody brightness, a room gets dark really quickly if there aren't enough torches. Better to use too many torches than not enough, I say.

[Zhil]

I think everyone misunderstood my post :(

I'm not talking about unlit torches relighting when Steve comes near. Unlit torches stay unlit. I'm talking about the fact that torches near Steve don't go out. They don't go out because I imagine he just casually relights them as he walks past.

In any case, Caboose's idea is interesting too. Might we combine them?

You add a mob that is small and very dark in texture, destroys torches and always keeps a distance of, say, 64 blocks from the player. Result? The darkness creeps up on you and you see shadows jumping around from the corners of your eyes. Idea?