Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

A place to talk to other users about the mod.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

Ulfengaard wrote: I'm not normally one to tell another person their business, but I've felt this way for you for a long time, now. The platform of MC is becoming less of a boon and more of a detriment, in my opinion. I don't claim to know your mind, man, but it has sounded for a while as though going your own way would be so much more fun for you. And, fun for you = content = lots more fun for us.
I don't disagree man, as I've definitely been thinking more and more along these lines for awhile now. First, with RTH as a separate dimension from BTW where I could do my own thing, then as a separate mod, now as a separate game.

The trend has definitely been more and more towards me moving away from MC as things got increasingly worse with it :)

Like with everything with me though, it's all a question of cost/benefit both to me and the players of BTW. Determining which route really is the most beneficial to everyone involved really isn't a simple matter which is why I've been devoting so much thought to this issue, and only taking periodic and relatively small steps towards resolving it to see where the sweet-spot is.
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HavokSCOUT
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by HavokSCOUT »

I can't speak for everyone, but I can say that if you do decide to make your own game, I would be more than happy to wait for it. Not only that, hopefully the forge crowd would lose interest during development. We get an awesome game, you get a barrel of monkeys off your back, and the Forge crowd can move on with their lives.
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praetorianer
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by praetorianer »

After being a quiet follower of your mod (couldnt play it the last few weeks though), I have to say something for the first time.

It's really sad, or even worse, to read about that plagiator-incident you happend to experience. I really understand you there, and have, every now and then, experienced remotely similar things. I don't have thick skin as you do, and certainly can handle it worse than you do. If it was up to me to decide, what people like THAT should deserve, noone would ever try to do that again. but it isn't.

Scum (sorry) like that really KILLS creativity, not only for themselves by taking over other ones ideas not training their own minds to produce any - but even more for society as a whole! - because of what they do to the really productive minds, and how they rip them off. it often seems more rewarding to steal than to produce and create something new. even more: the society came to celebrate those [...], regardless of the consequences for everyone else, including themselves. anyway...

if you really think about creating your own game, based on BTW-Minecraft, I wish you the best luck with it. I hardly bought any game the last couple of years, but your own project would certainly be worth a look! - it would at least free me from all the mod-implementation to minecraft :D - and, after all, you're goin your own way, away from other mods for quite some time now. it would be the logical next step, to secede from the maingame alltogether...

And if it was correct and upcoming, what you said about minecraft moddingAPI, then I fear (with a little ironic grin to it), that mojang will only hurt themselves ("sich ins eigene fleisch schneiden", as a german saying goes... guess that translates to "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?), finally emancipating their modders from them, what could guide not only you (but some more) to put some real minecraft-competitor Game out there; it could backfire severely for Mojang!

If finite8 is right, your singlegameproject would be the next interesting thing for me, after DayZ standalone . . .

"if... if... if..."? - after all: its up to you!

cheers and good luck!

PS: thx for your mod! :)
PPS: if one finds any misspellings (etc) in this, he/she can ... *ehm*... *cough*: "retain" it! :(
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walker_boh_65
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by walker_boh_65 »

From what I can see, from someone who has watched you deal with far too much shit that anyone, let alone a mod author giving free content that is enjoyed by everyone, should have to deal with, is that these types of things get you down. They cease production on something that they love (being BTW), and it makes you, FC, miserable in the process. You have tried to leave MCF to keep peace. That lasted for a while. Then you left forge and again thinks were relatively quiet for a time. But for some reason it never ends.

With that, it might be your best option to attempt to leave the MC modding to leave all the crap behind. It could be your best option for your own personal enjoyment in the future, perhaps not the near future knowing that infrastructure of code is not you favorite thing to work with.

No matter what you choose (continuing with the RTH plan or making a brand new game) or even if you decide that dealing with this shit is not worth it anymore, I'll support you.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

I was just making myself some dinner and had an amusing thought related to this that gave me a chuckle and that I wanted to share:

"This mod's development has become an Ayn Rand novel."

Not sure how many of you are familiar with her work, but for those of you that are, hope it gives you a laugh. I think it's a fairly accurate summary of everything that has happened.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Ribky »

Better Than Wolves: FlowerChild Shrugged. XD

I for one am just happy to hear that you are continuing on even in spite of all the bullshit getting thrown in your direction. I am pretty much at the point that if it weren't for the continued development of BTW and the prospect of RTH, I wouldn't even be playing MC anymore. So thank you for that.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

Ribky wrote:Better Than Wolves: FlowerChild Shrugged. XD
Hehe...pretty much. I actually just updated my MCF sig in keeping with this theme.
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logorouge
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by logorouge »

It makes me sad, because all the latest bullshit is actually pushing a talented guy away from what he loves doing in life. FC, I hope you find the solution that will bring back your enjoyment in a long term manner, so you can once again unleash your creativity and do what you like best. Whatever road you choose to take, I'll support you and I'll enjoy the ride. :)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by BlackCat »

Sorry I can't do much to help, I offer you my good will and support in all of this.
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Kazuya Mishima
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Kazuya Mishima »

FlowerChild wrote:
"This mod's development has become an Ayn Rand novel."
Are you Dagny or Rearden? My guess is Rearden. His Rearden Steel did seem to have some of the mythical properties of SFS
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

Kazuya Mishima wrote:Are you Dagny or Rearden? My guess is Rearden. His Rearden Steel did seem to have some of the mythical properties of SFS
Personally, I think I'm more of a Howard Roark.
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RezDev
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by RezDev »

First off, I apologize if I'm a little bit late to the party; I've been thinking about this a bit trying to figure out what I want to say, even though I realize that I'm not much of anybody around here.

That being said:

TL;DR: FC, you are awesome on so many levels that it will take me a long wall of text to explain fully. In a nutshell, though, you have my support 100% regardless of what you decide to do.

Long post is long, so, spoiler'd:
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So, being that I am not as hard-core a gamer as some here, I didn't even know that modding was a thing until I started playing MC. I'm not a programmer, and I'm not a particularly computer-savvy individual, so the comparatively simple install (MCPatcher->modloader->BtW) made it less daunting for me.

That and the content (ooo, windmills!) feeling like the low-tech, medieval atmosphere of vMC is what sold me on the mod, and I am very, very, very glad that this was the first mod I encountered and installed.

After playing it and being around the community, I have come to appreciate the little tweaks this mod makes to vanilla gameplay, as well as its overall design philosophy much, much more. BtW is truly 'more vanilla than vanilla.'

It is this mod that inspired me to explore automation and mob farms, learn redstone and logic (which apparently is getting fucked up in 1.5, sigh), and envision aesthetic design and building on a larger scale.

I have had so many thoughts and ideas stem from this mod that it has even inspired me to teach myself Java so that I can make an add-on myself in the future (actually, I don't know if this makes me 'inspired' or 'batshit insane'), and the fact that there are so many hooks built-in for add-on authors is nothing short of an amazing act of generosity on your part in taking the time to provide a functionality that is not really necessary to the gameplay but is there for the benefit of those who have the ability to make the tweaks to the game that they would like.

I have been learning how to texture, and studying the features of MCPatcher all so I can keep my preferred texture pack up-to-date with BtW.

I have gotten smarter over the past year or so, and have tried out a couple of other 'flavors' of Minecraft, but keep returning to BtW because of how well-designed it is, how internally consistent it is, and how well it integrates into vMC. BtW IS Minecraft, at least to me.

Which is why I would be disappointed if you left MC modding, as BtW->RTH still has so much untapped potential in it, and I really want to see what you come up with. Your departure would be a massive loss to the modding community, for sure.

It makes me truly sad that the situation has come to what it is, and even more so that the 'greater community' would even tolerate this kind of blatant entitlement. I mean, the texture pack forum is full of kids bleating about texture copyrights, but BWF is somehow OK? Whatever. It makes me wonder whether Mojang actually working on the extended IDs and API instead of witches and withers and fucking up redstone would have helped prevent this situation, but who can say?

However, that being said, I can totally empathize with your situation, having myself quit jobs where I was experiencing personality conflicts with other employees or being put in aggravating, stressful situations that destroyed any amount of enjoyment I got from doing the job, and those were jobs, not 'hobby' situations that are done purely for fun, so it would definitely be selfish and unreasonable for any of us to expect you to continue to 'fight the good fight' if it is detrimental to your creative drive and overall general well-being.

At any rate, I wish you the best of luck in deciding which direction you will ultimately take. I enjoy playing Minecraft and Better than Wolves, but the thought of an 'FC original' is quite intriguing as well.

Hopefully Kickstarter will be more sympathetic to my situation than PayPal whenever I've tried to kick you a little somethin'somethin' in the past. I am behind you 100%; you haven't steered us wrong as of yet.

In closing:

Thank you for spending the last year or so of your time to make something fun for me to play, and then giving it to me for free. Thank you so very much.
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Kazuya Mishima
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Kazuya Mishima »

Never did read the Fountainhead but this event does seem to parallel Rearden's experience w/ the usurpation of his intellectual property, facilitated by a rather large monolithic entity.

Rand always seemed to hold the intangible products of a man's mind more primary than the tangible good or real land. A protection of which is a protection of the mind which Rand esteemed highly. Sorry you have to go through this but i understand why and feared this would end up happening. Hopefully one day there are more effective means to protect ideas and attribute them to their creators and if not recompense at least acknowledge where acknowledgement is due. The internet is so young and dynamic and legal institutions are bloated and slow and i would imagine any solution would have to be a decentralized one which is yet to evolve.
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xou816
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by xou816 »

I feel bad for you, man. Really, that's a sad thing getting disappointed and discouraged on a project you've been on for years.

I don't what to say about this, since I didn't really followed all the BWF conflict, and as I'm not a native English speaker it's been quite hard to go through all the posts... My eyes juste gazed over :)

So yeah, I hope all this sh*t with BWF will stop and that you'll be happy with modding again :)

Let's hope 2013 will be a good year for you! Happy new year to you by the way!

(just a little thing: have you considered dawnraider's option, which it is to stop update to vMC and just go with a choosen version? it would allow avoiding all the 1.5 update mess...)



Nice sig RezDev by the way :)
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

RezDev wrote:Thank you for spending the last year or so of your time to make something fun for me to play, and then giving it to me for free. Thank you so very much.[/spoiler]
Shucks man. Thanks for taking the time to write that.

I am particularly gratified when people feel inspired by the mod towards acts of creation of their own, which is of course an entirely different thing from plagiarism, so I really do like hearing stories like that. I guess that's why I am motivated to provide hooks and such so that add-on authors can do their thing. Does it benefit the mod directly or relate to my primary desire to design and implement gameplay? Not really. But I still take great satisfaction from seeing what people do with it just the same.

Anyways, thanks. Your spoilered wall of text spoke to me there :)
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

xou816 wrote: (just a little thing: have you considered dawnraider's option, which it is to stop update to vMC and just go with a choosen version? it would allow avoiding all the 1.5 update mess...)
Yeah, sorry, I meant to get to that but I've been on and off with the computer tonight.

I don't really see it being a viable option. The amount of bitching I'd get about it would probably be on nigh Forge levels, and the tech support for it would be a nightmare. Not to mention, it would be a severe pain in the ass for players looking to install. I also have no idea how Mojang would react to that if it turns out they do decide to prevent base-class mods (again...nothing definitive there, just rumors).

At that point, it would also amount to me taking full ownership of the code base at whatever version of MC I decide to branch at. All future bugs fixed would have to come from me, which means I'd have to have a fairly intimate understanding of pretty much all aspects of that code base. At that point man, I think I'd vastly prefer to just be working with my own code instead of being fully responsible for someone else's.

There's also a matter of player expectation, which while you all know I'm just fine with ignoring, it's still annoying as fuck having people pop up all the time saying "can we get 'foo' vanilla feature?" or "why doesn't 'foo' work with BTW?"

I think going with my own game would largely eliminate that kind of bullshit. As long as what I'm developing works on MC as a platform, there will be certain expectations of how I'm "supposed" to be developing which I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with. I think branching would only serve to amplify that, and provide further excuses to the morally bankrupt to rip off my work.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Battlecat »

There's not a whole lot I can add that hasn't already been said except that I support whatever decision you make and I'm looking forward to RTH, no matter what form it may take in the future.

RezDev put it quite nicely I think. Thanks for making something awesome and free for us to enjoy.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

Kazuya Mishima wrote:Never did read the Fountainhead but this event does seem to parallel Rearden's experience w/ the usurpation of his intellectual property, facilitated by a rather large monolithic entity.
True, but I think I feel more of an affinity to Roarke given he was engaged in a creative endeavor, ostracized for his refusal to conform, and due to his devotion to his own creative integrity.

Personally, I thought the Fountainhead was a much more succinct and easy to relate to conveyance of Rand's philosophy than Atlas was. I found there was an awful lot of hand holding in Atlas where the same points were harped on ad nauseum in various portions.

They're rather similar stories though, and express similar concepts, just from different perspectives.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Stormweaver »

I've been holding off on posting, as...well to be honest, I'm starting to sound like a broken record. And not even the creepy minecraft one.

You've given us a mod, you've given us a community, and you've given us endless hours of entertainment. I'm pretty sure anyone who has been around as long as I have will agree that, in the end, a happy Flowerchild is a productive Flowerchild, and a productive Flowerchild...seems to be a happy Flowerchild. So whatever you decide to do man, keep that in mind. Make your own game from scratch? This is the internet, I'm sure if whatever BTW gives us grows old before RTH is ready we'll find something to pass the time. Stick with minecraft? We'll be here to keep morale up and run interference with the idiots that try to put you down.

I might be a member of many forums, but this is the only one I'll check for reasons beyond tech support and information gathering. A good community does that to you :)
PatriotBob wrote:Damn it, I'm going to go eat pumpkin pie while I still think that it tastes good.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by FlowerChild »

Stormweaver wrote:I might be a member of many forums, but this is the only one I'll check for reasons beyond tech support and information gathering. A good community does that to you :)
Hehe...thanks man. It's funny though in that as many of you know, creating a community was never a priority for me.

Am I happy it's here? Definitely. It just strikes me as rather ironic that the secret to a good community seems to be not particularly aiming for one to begin with ;)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by TaterBoy »

I felt compelled to say something as well after reading your thoughts on the current situation. I have been far more quiet on the forums than I have liked, I'm quite timid and often linger in the social background of my own life. And though I'd like to change that, to improve it, I find myself constantly lacking the basic social skills that seem to come easily to others.
That aside, your mod revived a passion for Minecraft I hadn't felt in a long time, I knew nothing of mods or even texture packs until I discovered Better Than Wolves. I can't express my regret enough for not being a stronger part of this community, and fighting the good fight along side all of you guys, and especially you FC.
Like others have said before, your mod is so much more than a game to me, it's no exaggeration when I say that it has helped me during my recovery from crippling, life-threatening depression. I found the mod shortly after a particularly low point in my life, and it was like finding new life in a place I never expected. I'd even venture to say that it's helped me maintain a grasp on my sanity. So for all of those things I can't find the words to express my appreciation for all you've done.

Just know I'll always be grateful to you for this gift you've given to everyone, and for the past year of my life you've enriched.

-Tater
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RezDev
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by RezDev »

FlowerChild wrote:It just strikes me as rather ironic that the secret to a good community seems to be not particularly aiming for one to begin with ;)
Kind of like 'The Life of Brian.'

"Follow the shoe!"
xou816 wrote:Nice sig RezDev by the way :)
You can thank Skrump for that. :)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by Elensaar »

Like Storm, I'm beginning to feel a bit like a broken record. You have my full support FC. Regardless of what form RTH ends up taking, I'm looking forward to playing it.

You're a huge inspiration to this aspiring game designer/developer, and your hard work on this mod has inspired me to put a lot more time into my own game project.
Lots of planets have a north...!
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thekyz
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by thekyz »

I wish to add my support too to this. You're the only reason i'm still playing minecraft. Damn I even learnt javascript & wikimedia script while maintaining the BtW wiki ^^
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

Post by MoRmEnGiL »

We're here for you man. Whatever the future may hold, the man who made me almost unable to play the best game of the decade without his mod deserves my support, and, may I say, that is without factoring in personal tastes and likes ;]

I think you should take it easy and see where you end up, I'm not sure how you function with self pressure, but don't stress it, do what you want to do when you want it, I for one will be with you whatever you choose to do.

I can't really say I'm happy with the news, but that is not because of the impact on btw/rth, at least not primarily. It's saddening me that outside factors are fucking up your good times. This is like a relationship failing because of third parties. It happens, but it is really unfair.

If you make your own game, I hereby officially request collecting dung to be a central gameplay element :P
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