The BTW vs RP conflict: a historical approach

[Toyi]

As per FC's request, this is intended to be a short and illustrative list of some devices an their functionalities being "borrowed" from Better than Wolves into RedPower and conversely. As you may notice, this went from the simple (and pretty common) "I like this idea and want to implement it in my mod", to far beyond the point of "anything you do, I do it better". Even when both mod autors have shown declared antipathy to each other, and have exchange some lunges (been Eloraam who gave the last one with her "horizontal-dyed windmills") they have kept a certain boundary of respect for each other's work, and this is in no way comparable to the fact that Better With Forge is a total rip off of FlowerChild's intelectual property and the deplorable behavior of LexManos as the head of the Forge supporting it.

An special case in the list below is the mention of the SpaceToad's Buildcraft transport pipes, while not being directly related to BTW, the implementation of the RP2's tubes were one of the main reasons for FlowerChild to decide leaving the Forge.

All versions cited bellow provides a link to the release announcements.
The full changelog of Better than Wolves can be read here. It includes release dates starting with the version 2.66.
The full changelog of RedPower and RedPower2 can be read here. Release dates starting with RP2 PR1 can be confirmed in her RP2 blog, that is up again.

FlowerChild's Better than Wolves
Eloraam's Red Power and Red Power 2
SpaceToad's Buildcraft

Device Name: Saw / Hand saws
Basic Functionality: Sub-blocks crafting.
Differences: BTW's version is a block, capable of cutting wooden blocks only. RP version is a crafting table item to make microblocks of any material, it exists in five varieties and wears off by using it.
First appearence: BTW2.20 for MC beta 1.5_01 (May 27th, 2011) / RP 1.7.0 for MC beta 1.7.3 (August 25th, 2011)
Images:

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Device Name: Hemp / Flax
Functionality: Plant, no world-generated, two blocks growth, provides fiber.
Differences: BTW's hemp is processed into fibers for crafting of rope and fabric. RP's Flax is a non-spidey source of string.
First appearence: BTW1.60 for MC beta 1.5_01 (May 6th, 2011) / RP2 PR1 for MC beta 1.8.1 (October 2nd, 2011)
Images:

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Device Name: Pipes / Tubes
Functionality: Contained item transport.
Differences: Pipes can be crafted in with different materials and with special properties for each. Tubes came in a single generic kind.
First appearence: BC1.0 for MC beta 1.5_01 (April 25th, 2011) / RP2 PR1 for MC beta 1.8.1 (October 2nd, 2011)
Images:

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Device Name: Hibachi / Igniter
Functionality: Block that creates fire, toggleable. Special notice in the similarities of the textures.
Differences: The Hibachi creates fire on the upper face of the block. The Igniter can be rotated to provide fire to any of its faces.
First appearence: BTW1.0 for MC beta 1.4_01 (April 10th, 2011) / RP2 PR4e for MC 1.2.3 (March 17th, 2012)
Images:

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Device Name: Platforms / Frames
Functionality:Movable blocks. Special notice in the similarities of the textures.
Differences: BTW's Platforms allow vertical movement when used in conjuntion with anchors, rope and pulleys. RP2's Frames can be moved horizontally or vertically using Motors.
First appearence: BTW2.60 for MC beta 1.6.6 (June 15th, 2011) / RP2 PR5 for MC 1.2.5 (April 21th, 2012)
Images:

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Device Name: Windmill / Vertical Windmill / Wind Turbine & Wooden Windmills
Functionality: Power producing devices.
Differences: BTW's Windmills and Vertical Windmills produce mechanical power, RP2's Wind Turbines produces blutricity and the windmills wear off by use. The BTW's Vertical windmil was designed to provide mechanical power in the Nether. Note that after BTW's Vertical Windmills were released, an image of regular and dyed "work in progress" version of RP2 windmills was leaked.
First appearence: BTW2.31 for MC beta 1.6.6 (June 1st, 2011) / BTW4.30 for MC 1.4.1 (October 25th, 2012) / RP2 PR6? for MC 1.4.6? (first image shown on October 7th, 2012, the image with horizontal windmill was shown on October 29th, 2012 the version with both was released 2 months later RP2 PR6 for MC 1.4.6 (December 21th, 2012)
Images:

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[FlowerChild]

Oh wow. Thanks man. I appreciate you taking the time to try and compile this info.

Obviously, my release announcements on the BTW MCF thread are invaluable for determining the dates on my releases. If you run a search on "** NEW RELEASE **" you should easily find all of them and be able to tie version numbers to dates.

I've always headed each of them with some variant of "[*** NEW RELEASE ***]".

[Toyi]

Oh wow. Thanks man. I appreciate you taking the time to try and compile this info.

Obviously, my release announcements on the BTW MCF thread are invaluable for determining the dates on my releases. If you run a search on "** NEW RELEASE **" you should easily find all of them and be able to tie version numbers to dates.

I've always headed each of them with some variant of "[*** NEW RELEASE ***]".

No problem, man, anything I can do to help the cause. :D
Yeah, your release notes are being pretty useful, sadly Elo wasn't very organized it seems...

[FlowerChild]

No problem, man, anything I can do to help the cause. :D
Yeah, your release notes are being pretty useful, sadly Elo wasn't very organized it seems...

Her blog probably would have been quite useful there, as I think she announces each release and it's dated automatically.

Unfortunately, my understanding is that her blog has been mostly down for the past month or so.

[nukularpower]

So hard to know who to believe in these days. I mean, I really didn't expect this BWF thing to devolve into another excuse to publicly bash Eloraam. I hope you're going to include a mention of the very signifigant functional differences between every one of those things you mentioned, and maybe mention that despite the "constant assault" of trolling with a texture here and there, Eloraam has never once said a bad word in public about FC or BTW, despite the near-constant assault on her over the past year.

Hoping for better. Left disappointed.

[FlowerChild]

So hard to know who to believe in these days. I mean, I really didn't expect this BWF thing to devolve into another excuse to publicly bash Eloraam. I hope you're going to include a mention of the very signifigant functional differences between every one of those things you mentioned, and maybe mention that despite the "constant assault" of trolling with a texture here and there, Eloraam has never once said a bad word in public about FC or BTW, despite the near-constant assault on her over the past year.

Hoping for better. Left disappointed.

Ummm...seriously? Thank you, come again.

There's no "bashing" of Eloraam going on here. On the contrary, my opponents in this debate seem to be pointing to my copying of "her" wind-mill as justification for what they're doing with BWF, like that action is even vaguely comparable, and like it was entirely unprovoked. The only thing happening here in response is the highlighting of the history behind that situation, and how it is a completely different ball of wax.

[dawnraider]

Nice job on this. A couple things, though. 1) You forgot the windmull debacle. (Though seeing as BWF dev may have predated that it may not be valid, and it simply. Gives them a reason to attack FC) 2) The desription on the platforms/frames is the same as for the hibatchi/igniter.

[FlowerChild]

Nice job on this. A couple things, though. 1) You forgot the windmull debacle. (Though seeing as BWF dev may have predated that it may not be valid, and it simply. Gives them a reason to attack FC) 2) The desription on the platforms/frames is the same as for the hibatchi/igniter.

He's slowly filling it in as he finds the info. It isn't complete yet.

[MrLemon]

So hard to know who to believe in these days. I mean, I really didn't expect this BWF thing to devolve into another excuse to publicly bash Eloraam. I hope you're going to include a mention of the very signifigant functional differences between every one of those things you mentioned, and maybe mention that despite the "constant assault" of trolling with a texture here and there, Eloraam has never once said a bad word in public about FC or BTW, despite the near-constant assault on her over the past year.
Hoping for better. Left disappointed.

Flowerchild vs. Eloraam and Flowerchild vs. Forge are really two completely different issues that both happen to involve Flowerchild.

Flowerchild vs. Eloraam is like 2 friends who had a falling out and aren't really friends anymore, in fact they don't even like each other anymore, they occasionally get in fights and stuff, but still see some good qualities in each other and have some mutual respect.

Flowerchild vs. Forge(LexManos) is like Flowerchild standing up to LexManos, a playground bully, he sees little to no redeeming qualities in him and just wants him to stop bothering him and others from doing what they want during recess.

[FlowerChild]

Flowerchild vs. Eloraam and Flowerchild vs. Forge are really two completely different issues that both happen to involve Flowerchild.

Flowerchild vs. Eloraam is like 2 friends who had a falling out and aren't really friends anymore, in fact they don't even like each other anymore, they occasionally get in fights and stuff, but still see some good qualities in each other and have some mutual respect.

Flowerchild vs. Forge(LexManos) is like Flowerchild standing up to LexManos, a playground bully, he sees little to no redeeming qualities in him and just wants him to stop bothering him and others from doing what they want during recess.

Yup, that pretty much sums it up. I don't even particular want to bring Eloraam into this whole mess with me and LexManos, however, given that seems to be part of what they are using to attack me and justify their actions, I think explaining how the situation dramatically differs in my own defense is appropriate.

[dawnraider]

Nice job on this. A couple things, though. 1) You forgot the windmull debacle. (Though seeing as BWF dev may have predated that it may not be valid, and it simply. Gives them a reason to attack FC) 2) The desription on the platforms/frames is the same as for the hibatchi/igniter.

He's slowly filling it in as he finds the info. It isn't complete yet.

I understand that, I was just pointing it out as something that needed to be done.

[Magnavode]

The Eloraam bashing comments are inevitable. It's a good thing it's so close to the OP. However I do think that is should be pointed out in the OP that the purpose of this topic is to disprove the "BTW is ripping off RP" argument.

Unfortunately, my understanding is that her blog has been mostly down for the past month or so.

Here's a usefull tip for you:
If you google "cache:<http://URLhere>" you will land on the latest copy of the page in google's cache. I often use it when the wiki is down ;)

[FlowerChild]

I understand that, I was just pointing it out as something that needed to be done.

You used the word "forgot" which implies something that has been omitted rather than something that has yet to be included.

I was just pointing that out as not being correct.

[dawnraider]

I understand that, I was just pointing it out as something that needed to be done.

You used the word "forgot" which implies something that has been omitted rather than something that has yet to be included.

I was just pointing that out as not being correct.

Ah, I apologize for that, then. Just trying to help.

[Toyi]

Wow, I left this open for an hour or two and I got so many replies. I love this community, pretty active!

First, this thread was created to establish facts and for reference to anyone trying to imply that FC's mod being plagiarized is the same of copying the functionality of some blocks (and to prove that FC didn't started that trend with the windmill "issue")

Here's a usefull tip for you:
If you google "cache:<http://URLhere>" you will land on the latest copy of the page in google's cache. I often use it when the wiki is down ;)

Thanks. I tried it but did't have luck :( Anyways I've checked the RP2 threat in MCF and her tweeter to get most of the dates. Man, it's really sad to read the level of activity she once had with her followers, and now she doesn't even drop by once a month and say "hey! I'm still alive".

Ah, I apologize for that, then. Just trying to help.

No problem man, it's the thought that counts.

[dawnraider]

First, this threat was created to establish facts

Ah, yes. I always love gathering info through violence ;) Anyways, nice job on starting this up!

[FlowerChild]

First, this threat was created to establish facts and for reference to anyone trying to imply that FC's mod being plagiarized is the same of copying the functionality of some blocks (and to prove that FC didn't started that trend with the windmill "issue")

Thanks a bunch man. Any chance I could ask you to tone down the language in the Wind Mill section though? :)

While I appreciate the sentiment I think labeling it that way will cause people to view it as "Eloraam Bashing" rather than as the attempt to set the record straight that it's intended to be.

Also, mention of her horizontal wind mill as the last blow struck in this battle (there's been no action since), may be worthwhile.

[Battosay]

Sidings ... errr Panels should figure in that list too ;)

[FlowerChild]

Batto: The Siding/Panel thing is already covered in the Saw bit methinks.

I'd drop the Light Block/Lamp bit too, as really, that's REALLY obvious functionality that I wouldn't draw any connections with their appearance in any two mods.

It's pushing the "copy" thing too far IMO.

[Toyi]

Ah, yes. I always love gathering info through violence ;) Anyways, nice job on starting this up!

lol! sorry about the typo. As you may have noticed by now, I'm not English native speaker, so any grammar/spelling correction is also welcome. :)

Thanks a bunch man. Any chance I could ask you to tone down the language in the Wind Mill section though? :)

While I appreciate the sentiment I think labeling it that way will cause people to view it as "Eloraam Bashing" rather than as the attempt to set the record straight that it's intended to be.

Also, mention of her horizontal wind mill as the last blow struck in this battle (there's been no action since), may be worthwhile.

Sure man, sorry for that, I got carried away.

Batto: The Siding/Panel thing is already covered in the Saw bit methinks.

I'd drop the Light Block/Lamp bit too, as really, that's REALLY obvious functionality that I wouldn't draw any connections with their appearance in any two mods.

It's pushing the "copy" thing too far IMO.

Ok, I will remove it too.

[haphazardnuke]

Not sure if this should be added to the list, but I thought this would be the appropriate place to mention this.

In a recent release, we were given the ability to set fire to any side of a hellfire block. IIRC, there was some discussion of this back when Eloraam did the same thing as part of her Igniter blocks. I doubt it was an intentional thing on FC's part, so maybe it shouldn't get included...

Good job putting this together, in any case.

[FlowerChild]

Not sure if this should be added to the list, but I thought this would be the appropriate place to mention this.

In a recent release, we were given the ability to set fire to any side of a hellfire block. IIRC, there was some discussion of this back when Eloraam did the same thing as part of her Igniter blocks. I doubt it was an intentional thing on FC's part, so maybe it shouldn't get included...

Seriously? Ummm...dude, we're getting pretty close to Rule #1 territory here.

No idea what infinite burn hellfire blocks have to do with anything RP related, but at best, you're REALLY stretching here.

[dawnraider]

Ah, yes. I always love gathering info through violence ;) Anyways, nice job on starting this up!

lol! sorry about the typo. As you may have noticed by now, I'm not English native speaker, so any grammar/spelling correction is also welcome. :)

To be quite honest, I never would have noticed. One thing though, that isn't important, it would be "a historical", not "an historical" Even natives make spelling errors (I even once said "groth" in an English essay. I think I play too much BTW (Is that possible? (Whoh, ()'s-ception))), and I haven't noticed any grammar errors.

-ception explanation

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The -ception thing is a refernece to the movie "Inception", which featured tri-level nested dreams, and in American culture, now refers to any large number of nested objects.

/endramble

Again, great job on making this, it certainly helps in the fight.

[Breathesleep]

Hello. Long time lurker here.
I may be mistaken, as I am not sure how old the addition of flax was to PP (or the age of that mod in general), but there is a mod called the Peaceful Pack which adds things to terrain gen for players who play on peaceful- i.e fossils for bones, etc. PP was the first mod I know of to have Flax, a plant which generated in new chunks and would drop string.

Not sure how extensive this thread is meant to go as far as idea stealing from non BTW or BC mods, but I found it a bit henky.

-edited for not-reading-the-op-well-enough related stupidity

[FlowerChild]

No, I really don't want this to get into other mods.

The only reason I mentioned the BC pipes thing was that was the incident that precipitated me leaving the Forge, and thus is directly related to the history between BTW and RP.