FlowerChild wrote:
You'll also notice, that unlike other modders, I very rarely bitch about Mojang's code, and tend to come down pretty hard on people when they do. This is precisely because I have such an extensive knowledge of real world programming, and thus also understand that *real* production code inevitably involves shortcuts and other sacrifices that facilitate *getting the fucking job done*.
Amen to that. I've worked on large websites (one webmail with 4,5 million users, one country-wide real estate site, one globe-wide colaboration platform with tens of millions views per day) for years, and I can safely say academic approach doesn't work. All has to be done in a hurry, on time, with shifting focii, so you do and redo things sometimes 10 times. And then you look at the code years later and cry :)
As you said, Lex has the leisure of academic approach just because he makes an API. I've had a situation in the beginning of my programming career (that with the real estate sell and rent site), when my predecessor designed a cool framework, but did no actual functionality of the website itself... Then, his employers fired him in an instant and hired me to do the work, which proceeded in "fantastic pace" (real quote). Yes, his framework was excellent, but *I* built the site itself. It taught me the importance of "getting work done" vs "doing work in academic way" :P
Plus, whining about somebody else's bad code in public for 7 hours is extremely low. I've met programmers like this - they were vocal of others' errors, and hush-hush about their own - and in all cases they did it for their personal advancement in ranks. By bringing down other people.
Edit: fixed the quotes :P My bad.
Last edited by Azradun on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
finite8 wrote:
You'll also notice, that unlike other modders, I very rarely bitch about Mojang's code, and tend to come down pretty hard on people when they do. This is precisely because I have such an extensive knowledge of real world programming, and thus also understand that *real* production code inevitably involves shortcuts and other sacrifices that facilitate *getting the fucking job done*.
Amen to that. I've worked on large websites (one webmail with 4,5 million users, one country-wide real estate site, one globe-wide colaboration platform with tens of millions views per day) for years, and I can safely say academic approach doesn't work. All has to be done in a hurry, on time, with shifting focii, so you do and redo things sometimes 10 times. And then you look at the code years later and cry :)
As you said, Lex has the leisure of academic approach just because he makes an API. I've had a situation in the beginning of my programming career (that with the real estate sell and rent site), when my predecessor designed a cool framework, but did no actual functionality of the website itself... Then, his employers fired him in an instant and hired me to do the work, which proceeded in "fantastic pace" (real quote). Yes, his framework was excellent, but *I* built the site itself. It taught me the importance of "getting work done" vs "doing work in academic way" :P
Plus, whining about somebody else's bad code in public for 7 hours is extremely low. I've met programmers like this - they were vocal of others' errors, and hush-hush about their own - and in all cases they did it for their personal advancement in ranks. By bringing down other people.
As much as I'd like to take credit of that... you'd better check your quote tags.
Flowerchild (IRC) wrote:I'm not trying to stop you BTW ..., I'm saying that I think you're a piece of shit...not the same thing
FlowerChild wrote:<a minecart-load of truth about code>
As a professional developer myself, I have to chime in my support here. The most important thing is getting the job done. I've seen you do more than enough refactoring over the time you've developed BTW to know that you don't let code-rot linger. And the fact that bugs are squashed regularly and quickly clearly shows that there are no glaring maintenance issues.
While I stand fully by the DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself) principle, that phrase has to be viewed in context. Code should only be shared between different places if it will change in all those places for the same reasons. Just the fact that two functions look identical today doesn't mean they'll do so in two months when requirements change.
Besides, academical principles are fine, but they shouldn't get in the way of providing value to end-users. If you're thinking in design patterns before you've written the code, you're doing it wrong. Design patterns are emergent and help you refactor your code after it's written and providing value, when you're revisiting it for some reason.
Theory vs reality.. it is the same story everywhere.
My Database-Professor repeated like a mantra that there shall not be JOINS over more that three tables if one of those holds more that 10k Datasets.
Guess how shocked I was when I found that there were JOINS in production over ~5 Tables of which at least 3 hold more that 5Million Datasets..
Spending 8h on a 20Min job just to get the code nice gets you fired very quickly. On the other hand making your code so quick n' dirty that nobody else in the team can read it will do so too. (But no team no foul)
"We are not shooting for realism,.. we are shooting for awesome!"
This is ridiculous imho. Why is there even talk about btw code quality? It works like a charm, always did, is very performance friendly (unlike some other mods, no names needed), and probably the most bug free of all major mods. Talking about it is really absurd, and I hate it when people go on e-peen bragging on technical matters that no-one but them cares about.
EvanT wrote:Theory vs reality.. it is the same story everywhere.
That's true for any field. I can definitely confirm it for engineering.
Yea it's stupid they complaint about FC's code. It looks like they couldn't pick on the features so they picked on the coding. especially since 99% of forge users have no clue about the code anyway....
EvanT wrote:Theory vs reality.. it is the same story everywhere.
That's true for any field. I can definitely confirm it for engineering.
Yep me too. I frequently spend extra hours getting odd dimensions or features right on a Cad model when I can fake it into the print in 5 minutes. But because I'm on a team and there's a high chance some of our parts will be modified later, I have to spend the extra time to do it differently. Stuff I've done for personal projects, is definitely full of shortcuts and I wouldn't do it any other way.
This whole deal really shows Lex's inexperience. Hopefully the other forge members will see that too and start asking, "Why is he in charge?"
EvanT wrote:Theory vs reality.. it is the same story everywhere.
My Database-Professor repeated like a mantra that there shall not be JOINS over more that three tables if one of those holds more that 10k Datasets.
Guess how shocked I was when I found that there were JOINS in production over ~5 Tables of which at least 3 hold more that 5Million Datasets.
To off-topic on this one post: your database professor is either a fool, or isn't putting his message out correctly. There's no rule about sizes of joins - I'd see it as more of a performance guideline - and I've never heard those magic numbers...so they're not magic. At some point you might want to de-normalize a table or start thinking about indexing or paritions or *something* if you really need the performance, and maybe 10k records over 3 tables is a decent place to start...but i think it's a little low IMO. :)
FlowerChild follows YAGNI - you ain't gonna need it. Only do what you need, and be ready to refactor when you find out you need something else. It's a really good rule for keeping your sanity while writing code.
There's only one V in my name, thanks.
<TaterBoy> I figured out why there's so much lag. We have too much iron.
"going Flowerchild on someone" is now in the forge lexicon.
Lex is calling someone a twat for using base class edits and encouraging people to give the mod author grief.
FC is being borne out as right.
There's only one V in my name, thanks.
<TaterBoy> I figured out why there's so much lag. We have too much iron.
The whole calling people idiots if they make base class edits and don't do it "properly" is just ridiculous. People can code how they want to, and how is best (and if baseclass edits is faster, you're either an idiot for not doing it or you're working on an overly complicated API that strongarms people into using it , not naming names).
I believe that last link hasn't been discussed yet. I'd very much like to see the conclusion of that discussion as I'm intrigued as to how he justifies his belief that the (private) frustrated outbursts of someone who's little corner of the internet seems to be under a constant barrage of dickery is somehow much worse than copying and bastardising someone else's creative work in an attempt to spite them.
That being said, I don't believe slowpoke is being seriously malicious. He's trying to protect his baby, FTB, and that involves staying on good terms with his Forge bedfellows; it's understandable even if it leaves a sour taste. Listening to this discussion between him and Docm77, he seems to be a reasonable person who in this discussion goes out of his way to state that Forge and FTB are completely different entities.
I don't think confronting him has any value if he truly isn't keeping any secrets about BWF but how are we to know? I believe him when he says BWF won't be part of FTB; it would be a risky move for little reward. Burning bridges with him may not make sense in the long run because if, by some miracle, there is a sudden epiphany among the forge community that Lex may not be the best figurehead, slowpoke may be a rallying point for mod authors who have been treated well by FTB after being burned by tekkit.
FC's pantomime villain image given to him doesn't help the situation but what can you expect when the only reason for him to talk outside of this community these days is to defend himself from unprovoked attacks, in the process providing out-of-context quotes that give the impression of a paranoid warmongerer. The terrible thing is that not speaking out like he does would not be taken as stoicism, as it should, but would instead be taken as being beaten into submission and giving silent consent to what is being done.
These are purely hypothetical ramblings from someone looking in from the outside so feel free to ignore them. I would like to just forget about all of this and get on with designing my automatic tree harvester but every use of a buddy block or lens makes me feel more and more a part of this terrible affair and I only hope it can be resolved without leaving a stain on BTW for any new users who come along.
Given that the additional log is legitimate, I find it rather interesting that slowpoke thinks an outburst in a private sub-forum and the improvement of a feature that has been stolen frominspired by BTW in the first place justifies the full-blown copying of BTW to press it (it's functionality) into forge and the over the top advertising and involvement of it's (the forge's) head.
"We are not shooting for realism,.. we are shooting for awesome!"
Benanov wrote:Lex is calling someone a twat for using base class edits and encouraging people to give the mod author grief.
Yeah, nice catch on that one man. The exact quote from LexManos:
Don't use Biomes O' Plunty, use ExtraBiomesXL, BOP is a fork of EXBL, it is specifically designed to NOT work with forge. As it edits a ton of base classes where it doesn't need to. Go yell at it's author for being a twat.
Complete with Technic-style name-mocking.
I'd advise against pestering the mod author of the Biomes mod with this whole issue though guys. It looks like he simply wants to stop being harassed by Forge people, and I respect that.
That last link is interesting. It looks heavily hacked to pieces though, and poorly done. Answers without questions, topic changes without the connecting transition, channel noise from the masses removed but not all of it, a direct response to lex, but lex's post is missing, one of FC's comments is marked as if slowpoke said it (very clearly an fc statement even directed to slowpoke by name), etc.
Someone has majorly fucked with that log. It seems to remove everything important without a clear winner. I could see this being used to support either side. It makes no sense for fc or slowpoke to have edited it. If it was done by a forge member I'm beginning to suspect someone (*cough * lex) may be setting slowpoke up to take the fall for BWF. (Or maybe slowpoke is legitly involved and the rest of forge is trying to distance themselves). If it was from a btw member, they did so poorly and without a complete understanding of the situation.
Yeah, it isn't surprising they snipped the log at the point at which I began to explain how the situation between BTW and BWF vs that between Eloraam and I are vastly different.
They're just using it as bullshit justification for their own shady actions, in another attempt to obfuscate the overall situation.
First of all, Eloraam and I have been at it for close to a year now, ever since I left the Forge. Throughout that, she's blatantly copied visual aspects of my mod while working on similar features in an attempt to draw direct comparisons between my initial implementations and her "better" versions, to troll me further, and to provoke this thing between us by poking at the situation that motivated me to leave the Forge to begin with (her copying features from both BC and BTW while the three of us were working on what was supposed to be a collaborative project). Clear examples can be found with the Igniter/Hibachi and Frames/Platforms.
Most recently, when she implemented her wind turbine, she copied the exact physical dimensions of the sails and their look from the Wind Mills that have existed in BTW for a very long time now. Screenshots were released, and this one time (and it's the only time I've responded to it feature wise), I decided that the opportunity was perfect for me to release my own vertical wind mill to give her the return finger because it was exceedingly easy for me to implement given I already had my own code for doing such things, and because in this case, it was a feature that fit in perfectly with the rest of the mod. Around the same time I threw in my own version of marble in White stone to extend the finger a tad further.
She copied aspects of my original feature, I copied aspects of hers, she returned fire by copying the original Wind Mill outright with her own horizontal version, and then it was done. Now we both have Wind Mills of both types, and a decorative version of marble in our mods, and it's ended there.
So, that's what I've done, and given the overall context of the situation, I'll say what I think everyone else here is thinking: big fucking deal.
Beyond that, all we had was smack-talk on my part. Smack-talk in fact that I was engaging in on what was the private Turtle sub-forum, basically when I thought I was talking privately amongst friends and blowing off steam. Some ass decided to then leak that to a moderator on MCF, and then that ass of a moderator decided to leak that publicly. That was the end of the Turtles, because I could no longer trust that anything said there would remain private, which nullified the point of that sub-forum to begin with. I also did not want it to turn into a witch-hunt within that part of the community, so instead I opted to shut it down.
As I've said before: does anyone reading this want to be held accountable for their smack-talking when they think they're having a private conversation with friends? How many of you would be fired from your job for having bitched about your boss, or otherwise ostracized from a social circle for blowing off steam within that context?
The other thing that I'll say about Eloraam and I is that we've always had our limits in this ongoing feud between us. Every few months there's a bit of back and forth, and then it is largely done. To me, it is obvious that there is still respect there between us (there definitely is on my side at least, as my past statements on her coding abilities will attest), even if we dislike each other. Does anyone seriously entertain the idea though that either of us would suddenly produce an exact duplicate of the other's *entire mod*? Really?
In other words, it's apples and oranges. They're trying to somehow compare me copying a single feature from another mod (the vertical wind mills which are what they're trying to focus this on...I don't think anyone has mentioned marble on their side yet), in an obvious finger to that individual modder, in an ongoing feud that's lasted for a year and has seen blows back and forth on both sides, to someone in a position of clear power within the modding community using that in an attempt to squash an individual modder through yanking out their entire mod out from under them by promoting and aiding in the development of what's supposed to be an exact duplicate.
Not only are they comparing those two vastly different situations: they're somehow trying to argue that what I have done is worse. Pffffft.
Obviously, that just makes absolutely no sense, and I think the person who edited that log realizes this, as of course the log ends at the point at which I begin to point it out. It's pure propaganda and self-justification for morally bankrupt action.
BTW guys, if anyone has the time to put together a pictorial representation of the history between Eloraam and I based on screenshots, I think it would largely serve to end that line of reasoning entirely.
Looking back we have:
BTW Saw/RP Hand Saw (used to cut sub-blocks in both cases)
BTW Hemp/RP Flax (two block high fibrous plant)
BC Pipes/RP Tubes (the point at which I quit Forge as I considered it "going too far" for obvious reasons)
BTW Hibachi/RP Igniter (obvious visual similarities for similar functionality)
BTW Platforms/RP Frames (obvious visual similarities for similar functionality)
...and in the final flurry of blows after all that has occurred...
BTW Wind Mill/RP Wind Turbine (initial screenshot) & Marble/BTW Vertical Wind Mill & Whitestone/RP Horizontal Wind Mill & wind turbine modified to match my own vertical (struts etc.)
I think provided in a visual context, all you can do is look at it and go "pfffft...yeah, whatever". This isn't me "picking on" Eloraam. This is two strong individuals with two large communities of comparable size going at each other in a protracted feud where both parties have actively participated, and where if anything, I refused to really engage her for the past year and then chose to finally respond after she had prodded me several times.
SterlingRed wrote:Such a graphic needs to include implementation dates as well in order to avoid the which came first and who copied who fight sure to follow.
I listed them above in the order in which they were copied. I think if presented in that order it gives a clear enough indication of what has transpired. Digging through to find the individual dates would be a huge pain in the ass if someone decided to put something like this together, and I'm not really certain it does much to strengthen the overall statement in that I think the images would largely speak for themselves.
