What is BWF?

[embirrim]

Ok, after watching a bit more of that stream, I realized that this BWF thing is gonna be much, much better than BTW : They have stairs, tables and pedestal/columns for EVERY block in game.
Diamond ore Stairs. Companion cube table. Dung pedestal. Powder keg stairs.
POWDER KEG STAIRS ! How the hell did you not realize how much we need did FC ?!?

.....

More is always better.
Didn't you get the memo?

[FlowerChild]

Ok, after watching a bit more of that stream, I realized that this BWF thing is gonna be much, much better than BTW : They have stairs, tables and pedestal/columns for EVERY block in game.
Diamond ore Stairs. Companion cube table. Dung pedestal. Powder keg stairs.
POWDER KEG STAIRS ! How the hell did you not realize how much we need did FC ?!?
.....

Hehe...I know man. I mentioned that elsewhere as being a good early indication that they may very well fuck up their version of BTW in their own attempts to make it "better". It's doubtful IMO that someone can spend that much time on a mod without trying to improve it, and if someone lacks the creativity and understanding of game design to come up with their own mod to begin with, I suspect they'll also lessen the design of BTW in the process.

Unfortunately though, to anyone whose first experience is with that POS, they will also likely assume that's the way BTW works as well.

They aren't just ripping me off. They're basically misrepresenting whatever they do as my work thus lessening the quality of the BTW "brand" and my own credentials as a designer.

[FlowerChild]

There is a mcf moderator that has posted something about BWF on a discussion thread.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/160 ... ry19699714

with a screenshot attached.

That moderator is also active on the Technic forums. If he keeps it up I'll report him for bias.

[FlowerChild]

Also, just in case people don't realize, there's a new MCF thread on this topic that I'm actively participating in at present:

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/160 ... ith-forge/

[MoRmEnGiL]

Hm. Wow. I've seen dick moves of all kinds, but this one might as well be the king.

Ok, I don't think I need to comment on this whole business, idiots will be idiots, and I don't even want to start on the forge guys.

But what gets me, is the entire subterfuge attitude. Why don't they go ahead and say it: "we want to play brag about having btw with forge, and we do not care about you and what you want Fc at all. So we will just copy you and that's it."

That is low enough, but the attitude is the lowest of low. Whatever. In my eyes this situation could have the positive effect, in that all problematic btw players (whinners, people who don't get it etc) can fuck off to the clone, and leave people who can appreciate btw (and rth) and Fc alone. Seriously, this could be a good thing, if not for personal feelings.

In my life, I have come to realize that caring about opinions coming from people I don't care about is stupid, and I avoid it. Also, tell us about quantum mechanics mr janitor, we really value your insight.

I'm sorry this is happening man, you have been controversial from the early days, it is not really a surprise it has come to this.. I'm just glad for this community all the more.

Offtopic a bit: If there is need for irc logs, I'm 24/7 in the channel logging, apart from when my isp is trolling me, so a pm/memo and I will supply my logs.

[Ulfengaard]

Weighed in, but not sure it matters much. I'm hoping that the undecided folks are watching the debate progress and will consider that how we treat mods and modders now will have profound effects on the quality of the mods themselves as well as the longevity of Minecraft in general.

[GodOfBreadSticks]

I haven't been able to come on the forums or even play minecraft recently because I've been swamped with school work but I finally got a bit of a break this weekend. Unfortunately, when I checked up on the forums I was greeted with this.

I read through a lot of the posts both here and on the minecraft forums and I have to say, I am quite saddened by the way the MCF community is reacting to this. I can't believe some people are actively defending this kind of behaviour. It seems that most of their justifications come from them not liking you personally, which is idiotic in multiple different ways. I guarantee if the same sort of thing happened to a big forge modder, people would be (rightfully) up in arms about it They keep making arguments that it won't affect you or your mod's development. I'm not sure if that's true or not but I don't think it matters, this is mostly about principle and expecting people to not act like dickheads.

I really hope this works out for you and won't have to deal with this shit much longer. I also hope the minecraft forums community pull their heads out of their asses and realise that this is just manifestation of a much bigger underlying issue and that supporting this kind of behaviour will be extremely detrimental in the long run.

[Ulfengaard]

... this is mostly about principle and expecting people to not act like dickheads. ...

Exactly. This issue is about the future of modding for Minecraft. How this all develops (not just the debate but BWF itself) could have a major impact on whether creative individuals decide to mod for the game or take their business to another IP.

[Magnavode]

Also, just in case people don't realize, there's a new MCF thread on this topic that I'm actively participating in at present:

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/160 ... ith-forge/

I don't get why you're doing that. Why are you wasting so much stress and energy on that cesspool of the uninformed? All your comments are going to get drowned anyway, similar to how the fist topic about BWF on MCF got deleted.


Has Lexmanos / Forge made a public post about this yet? I would like to know their point of view.

[FlowerChild]

I don't get why you're doing that. Why are you wasting so much stress and energy on that cesspool of the uninformed? All your comments are going to get drowned anyway, similar to how the fist topic about BWF on MCF got deleted.

Please don't discourage people from posting there in this instance.

Again man, I'm trying to get the word out about this issue because the only recourse I have in this matter is to appeal to the court of public opinion, and the Minecraft community as a whole.

Regardless of all the uninformed BS that's appearing, there are probably countless others that are just reading what is being said without responding themselves, and honestly, all the uninformed BS only serves to make the other side in this look worse and worse as generally the way it is written and presented clearly screams "entitled child".

In other words, even the trolls are serving their purpose in helping to get the word out on the overall issue with regards to modder rights and respect.

As I've stated in the thread, this is a matter of me defending my self-respect and not allowing myself to be steamrollered by what is effectively a mob that have no respect for me or all the work I have put into providing free content to the community. It is also me defending my very desire to continue providing content to a community that would treat me this way.

I genuinely want to know where the community as a whole stands on this, and what they're willing to do about it, as I am really not certain if I want to continue to spend my time, work, and energy, providing toys to children that would then treat me in this way in return.

[Ulfengaard]

I genuinely want to know where the community as a whole stands on this, and what they're willing to do about it, as I am really not certain if I want to continue to spend my time, work, and energy, providing toys to children that would then treat me in this way in return.

Sublime. This is exactly what I'm trying to point out on the thread. It's a larger issue which affects you, FC, and it also is about the entire community. It's about the direction Minecraft will take because if we alienate the creative modder and praise the copycat, we end up with a lot crap mods.

[FlowerChild]

Has Lexmanos / Forge made a public post about this yet? I would like to know their point of view.

Lex has a seven hour video that details his stance on it:

http://www.twitch.tv/themattabase/b/346836818

Ever since, all he has done is deny his involvement, basically lying to people's faces about it when there's 7 hours of public proof otherwise, and showing a distinct lack of courage when it comes to his convictions.

[RoboticLamb]

Just finished reading the whole thread, figured I'd drop my 2 cents in.

The first mod I ever loaded into minecraft was BTW, and I loved it, and still do. it adds a natural tech tree to minecraft that feels well, natural. I have also been a proponent of forge back when it was spacetoad's baby (or at least he ran the forums thread) and xKillerbees first spotlighted what was possible with it.

and then when FC left forge, I remember Kaker and crew launching a shitstorm aginst FlowerChild (I may be wrong). Then Sengir made Kaker and co. mad by changing things, and now all of this? I was never aware that lex had such an ego. this whole thing just has me pissed that the modding community (which I hope to join at some point) can't cooperate like adults, obviously FC has a lot of balls to state his feelings publicly, and is trying to work this out to the best of his ability. I just hope this whole thing blows over and everthing goes back to normal, given the current state of everything, I personally don't foresee that happening. Anyway, I'm going to load up BTW and ride my elevator up and down until this is over. I'm behind you 100% FC.

[Foxy Boxes]

As I've stated in the thread, this is a matter of me defending my self-respect and not allowing myself to be steamrollered by what is effectively a mob that have no respect for me or all the work I have put into providing free content to the community.

I'm sorry for the off-topic, but as I read that I couldn't help but picture someone facing a protest mob outside their house and shouting "Get off my lawn!"... It was funnier in my head.

On topic: Personally, this sickens me. I've been part of many a modding communities and the actions undertaken, both by forge in general and BWF, would have at least resulted in a ban, if not being added to the community blacklist. The fact that people are actively defending such behavour is... disheartening, to say the least.

[embirrim]

I just find it amazing that this is taking the path it is taking. As FC said, there is so much worry in this community about texture pack copyrights and so on and so forth. So many new mods that come up on the MCF mod section have the first posts saying "this is a rip off of such and such". The community exploded violently when Mojang implemented pistons, saying they had copied the pistons mod, and even if they could they shouldn't have.
This is just utterly ridiculous. It is a bunch of whining self-entitled brats that will always always always take the easier way out of anything they find themselves coming across. People are just so uninformed about the whole issue, and think that if they quote some fucking law they heard on CSI or some other tv series, and put in a few random complicated words they find in the dictionary, they will be right. It is just... It's sad.

The guys that are on top of this whole project were just low, they know people will stand up for them. They know that the community wants more ingame power, they are aware that many players are of the opinion that more is better, as we can see with so many of the forge mods. BTW is a project with a certain mindset, it is made by someone who knows what he is doing, and this BWF thing will only provide players with asthetical options if they install it with all the other jumble of mods.

There is a reason that people play games on higher difficulties, and get famous for breaking time-limits on insanely mind-boggling game levels. It is difficult, it is rewarding when you can do it, and it makes you want to play the game more. You won't be attracted to somehting if somebody tells you "hey try out this mod it gives you unlimited everything and godmode". It is the difficulty of achieving something that makes you want to imitate it, so you can say "hey I beat such and such's record on this really difficult task".

I really hope people wake up and stop making stupid arguments that they know nothing about. I hope they start seeing how ridiculous it is to defend BWF. Or on the other hand, maybe they should just go and make a mod themselves. Or who knows, just copy an already existing one and try to get away with it.

[Extreme Boyheat]

Also, just in case people don't realize, there's a new MCF thread on this topic that I'm actively participating in at present:

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/160 ... ith-forge/

I don't think stringburka understands sexism very well.

[Graphite]

I honestly have no idea how MCF works now. Isn't the idea of moderators that they don't get involved and that they are impartial judges of who goes too far and who does not? Why the heck are they even allowing moderators to post their opinions in contested threads?

[embirrim]

I don't think stringburka understands sexism very well.

And it's a pity he has a doctor who avatar.

[Extreme Boyheat]

I honestly have no idea how MCF works now. Isn't the idea of moderators that they don't get involved and that they are impartial judges of who goes too far and who does not? Why the heck are they even allowing moderators to post their opinions in contested threads?

Moderators only really ban spambots and people posting filth. Keep everything under control so the worst of 4chan doesn't spam up the forum.
They're allowed to talk too. :)

[Educated_Fool]

Meh, after seeing a MCF-moderator actively working for a tekkit server (and advertising it in his banner) nothing surprises me anymore.

I just don't understand why people are so keen on protecting each and every wish of the 'end-user', even when that goes against the most simplest of wishes of the modmakers, or hell, even against public decency. Like, the player who gets to play shitloads of free extra content should be crowned and be heard like the gods that they are, while the people spending their time on said content should just bend over and code like dirty code monkeys, seriously?!

/endrant, I better go get some sleep, I'm a bit too grumpy for this nonsense at the moment

[Ulfengaard]

I honestly have no idea how MCF works now. Isn't the idea of moderators that they don't get involved and that they are impartial judges of who goes too far and who does not? Why the heck are they even allowing moderators to post their opinions in contested threads?

I reported that. May get a piece of the warn stick for it.

[FlowerChild]

I just want to repost some things I said over on the MCF thread here to preserve them in case the thread gets deleted by a mod. I think they are important enough that they shouldn't arbitrarily dissapear.

One thing that I just wanted to mention that I've heard a few times in this thread and elsewhere as well, is that many of you seem perfectly comfortable with me just packing up and leaving the MC modding scene entirely.

I find that particular viewpoint rather disturbing, because what it really comes down to is people saying that they want someone to leave because they have different views than they do.

Yes, I do things my own way. Yes, I can be a controversial figure that has no qualms about making his opinion known. Yes, I can be downright caustic at times.

But...I am also a guy that has spent the last year and a half of his spare time and creative energy providing the community with free content, and a constant stream of ideas as to how to improve the game that have seeped into countless other mods and even vanilla Minecraft itself.

Thus, I would like to point out just how short-sighted the "deal with it or leave" mentality really is. BWF represents people that love the ideas that I make manifest so much that they're willing to devote a ton of their own time to being able to play it in another format (Forge).

That may sound all well and good to some of you, but if they are also driving me out of the community at the same time, where the short-sightedness comes into this is that they're effectively saying is "we like your ideas so much that we want you to stop coming up with them". It operates under the assumption that somehow my creativity is in limited supply and that everything good I'll ever do for the community and the game has already been done.

In contrast, I have given no indication that I am slowing down to the community. In fact, I found it particularly ironic that some of the features they were going on about most favorably in that stream were some of my most recent ones that I have done in recent months such as modifications to animal breeding and stuff like hardcore bedding.

Again...this is incredibly short sighted. When you love someone's ideas and the contributions they make to the community and to gameplay, even if they are not immediately accessible to you given your personal choice of API (again...given that those ideas ultimately seep out into the rest of the community), why on earth would you want them, or even be comfortable with them stopping that flow of ideas outright? Why would you intentionally act in such a disrespectful manner towards them and their wishes that it risks doing exactly that?

It's silly, immature, short-sighted and is a classic example of "cutting off your nose to spite your face". The potential for my contribution to this game and community is far from exhausted. I have pages upon pages of notes packed with ideas that would continue to provide your entertainment (whether you're a BTW player or not). Yet somehow...there are those of you for whom the concept of me just walking away with that seemingly means nothing.

and a follow up post...

Just as an addendum to the above: to those of you that dislike my personality, have you ever considered that the very things that make me different may also be responsible for me fairly consistently coming up with ideas that no one else has considered?

Seriously: yes, I am a very different person from most, but I've learned to accept and embrace that throughout my life instead of trying to conform to the majority. I'll even go so far as I am a self-admitted and proud downright weirdo both online and off that people generally either love or hate within 10 minutes of meeting me. It is the very differences in my thought process and how I view things that gives me the ability to think outside the box and come up with solutions to gameplay problems never before considered.

In other words, those differences are an absolute asset to the community which I do not believe should be discarded so lightly. Whether you love or hate me, there's absolutely no one else quite like me in the community, and you've all benefited from that in one way or another.

Again, I'd ask you all to consider this issue very carefully and think of what it means beyond the immediate situation. It is important not just to me but to the community as a whole, and largely comes down to whether all of you desire to embrace diversity or conformity both socially and within the game you play.

[Ceunon]

I think that many here have already expressed opinions similar to mine: This thing stinks. I've never been to much into this whole issue with the Forge, but I'm quite aware of all the hate that FC has received over the past year. I really hope the assholes who are hiding behind their computers' screens have at least some balls to eventually come out and declare themselves.

That said...

Damn, how much time has FC wasted reading those MCF threads? Think about the things he could've added to BTW, were he working on the mod, instead. Like dung subblocks! Man, we really need columns and benches made of crap.

[FlowerChild]

Damn, how much time has FC wasted reading those MCF threads? Think about the things he could've added to BTW, were he working on the mod, instead.

I unfortunately can't do anything else at present. I've tried to work on the mod several times over the past few days only to inevitably become distracted by this all over again as this issue is far too important and offensive to me to be able to focus on creating content while it is eating at me.

The best I can do is fight as hard as I can until this is either resolved, or I have exhausted my desire to do so and can thus focus on other things once again.

But yes. These ass-hats are effectively stealing any new content I could be producing right now straight from you guys. I am human, I have been pushed beyond my capacity to be wronged without taking action.

[bludragn]

I've been lurking here for a very long time now, been playing BTW since way back when hibachis were introduced. This whole debacle finally made me want to sign up for an account so that I can say how much I appreciate all the hard work you've put into BTW over the past year and a half, and that I really hope you can put this mess behind you soon and get back to the modding that you so clearly enjoy and excel at. You don't deserve all this grief, you deserve a beer.