Flower's Dev Diary (Week of November 27th)

[FlowerChild]

That's a disgusting and misogynistic analogy.

Hardly. I think your trigger may be a little too sensitive for these forums if you think it is.

[odranoel]

i have no idea as to the technical feasibility to this so forgive my ignorance but would it be possible to maybe link two diffrence versions of MC, that would load up independently? one for BTW (which youd no longer continue to support or maintain) and when we go through "the device" BTW MC would shut down and automatically launch and load up BTW 2, as an entirely separate instance of minecraft modified to your desires.

and when ever we want to go back to our original world the same thing would happen. BTW 2 shuts down and loads up BTW 1. this would allow us to keep our old worlds, and liberate you to do as you please with an entirely fresh copy of MC. so in essence it would be like haveing two versions of MC installed that work in tandem.

again i have no idea how technically feasible this is but i figured id get it out here just in case it could work. either way i know youll come up with a solution one way or the other and the community will back you. BTW is just to amazing.

[muggsbud]

^ I kind of think that 2 MC's was part of that, or it would be required to have both, but i don't think the switching back and forth was part of the plan.

Forgive me if i missed something (thus far i've only had time to read posts from 'big names.'

[Pseudosavior]

While I'm a bit late to this conversation, I just want to add in my opinion; I agree with the most recent choice. While it'll be strange to see an end to the current Better Than Wolves, I'm excited (and quite frankly, scared) to see what TRTH will bring. No doubt, you'll add in your Eldritch horror and middle-finger-to-the-unwashed-masses styles, and not just as a secondary feature. I have full confidence in your upcoming decision, as I've had since the mod was six blocks. :)

Thanks for letting us in on this huge decision, I hope we as a community have helped. :)

[MoRmEnGiL]

Sigh, this is a sad state of affairs to say the least.

Personally I do not want to lose my world. It would make me lose all interest. I'm not of the constantly starting new worlds variety, I need persistence in my games, otherwise I lose interest in them very fast.

On the other hand, I also love minecraft. I love how it's open ended and anything goes. I do not need much encouragement or artificial goals, I set my own. Btw has until recently been extremely aligned with what I wanted from vmc. Only 2 of the hardcore changes (beds and f3) have alienated me, and made me wish they were optional. So yeah, I love btw. And I have a huge respect for it's creator.

All that said, there is no perfect solution to the problem. Or is there?

Spoiler

Show

Ok, a new option just occurred to me based on this conversation:

What if I were to do something I haven't seen a mod do before and develop a *true* sequel?

I mean, what if I spend the time now to give BTW an "end" that players can work towards that acts as the culmination of their efforts and completes the current story arc. I would then continue to maintain BTW for future versions of MC, but all further development on it would stop.

Then, I develop BTW: The Return To Home, as a brand new mod and sequel to the original, that picks up the story where BTW leaves it off. That mod then is my total conversion.

The only difference between this and my previous plans from a player perspective is that the trip to Home would be entirely one way. Once you make the journey, there's no way back.

Sure, you could go back and play your old world whenever you choose to with BTW 1, just like you can with any game that has a sequel, but if you want to continue the story, you play BTW 2.

To me, this has all the advantages of going TC, while preserving the integrity of the original BTW as it stands.

What do you guys think?

Dude, if you are willing to do this, you deserve fame and glory and 11 young beautiful virgins. This is the ONLY thing that makes me personally 101% happy and smiley. I get to keep my world without further hardcore changes, which even if most are in line with my tastes, make it feel progressively less minecrafty and sandboxy. At the same time, if there ever was an incentive to start a new world, it would be btw2, or what you call it. So I get to keep my vmc minecraft (ie btw1) WITH new mojang features (ie not forced to stay in a specific mc version and that's it), and at the same time experience btw2 in exactly the way you want it.

This prospect really makes me squee with joy. I really think there is only a couple of stuff btw needs to feel complete, and I'm not at all unhappy with the idea of no further development on your side of btw1.

So yeah, this thing has my vote. Again, it is the best of both worlds for me, and absolutely no compromise is made on my side. You on the other hand take the burden of maintaining your old code, which I cannot really ask you to. So I will just squee with joy and hope this is enough of an incentive to do that. Plus, there is no pressure to update that fast anyway, I'm sure most of btw1 users will be perfectly content to wait for as long as it takes you, knowing that there will eventually be an update.

Seriously, you even considering this shows how much you care for your players. We <3 FC :D

EDIT: and oh, if you go that way, the end of btw1 does totally need to be a "yes there will be a sequel to this movie" end, and not a "they lived happily ever after" end, the latter would be depressing :D

[Vitreous]

Honestly the only problem I have with the sequel idea is when I imagine how crazy epic it would be for Home to be connected to the previous world you made. Like you work your way up to it and theres proof you did and also the fact that you HAVE to work your way up to it. For example, what's to stop anyone from just skipping the first BTW altogether and heading to the second.

I just think the appeal of having to work all the way towards it, and it being connected to your original world, and the two worlds feeling connected, is strong.

But never-the-less, I understand if this is impossible or too much of obstacle for the ongoing progress of the mod.

I just wish Mojang would stop their bullshit and add something that's actually important like the extended block ids. Could it even be that hard for them to do?

Also I have to ask, would you still plan on the "device" in the video you posted being included if you did take the sequel route? Cause I think its neat. lol

[Ferrus.Manus]

I just wish Mojang would stop their bullshit and add something that's actually important like the extended block ids. Could it even be that hard for them to do?

To allow use of full 4096 block IDs allowed by Anvil world format? Pretty easy. However it seems (unless they changed their mind and I missed it) they are trying to implement solution that would allow for nearly infinite block IDs which is obviously really hard to do.

[The Phoenixian]

What do you guys think?

I like the idea of BTW being enough of a story to have an ending and a resulting sequel.

I also like the idea that, given your usual pace, It is entirely possible that the "end" of our worlds may arrive in late December, 2012.

So yes, I'm more than okay with this course of action.

[dawnraider]

I am all for BTW2 (Better than Better than Wolves?). I personally was for going TC (all the way back to the first mention of Home) until I heard this, since it allows for a smooth progression, and for keeping old worlds intact and usable. Whatever you go with, though, will be backed by me.

[Ceunon]

Let's just not forget that we're still talking about Minecraft. Notch made an *incredible* game, and none of us would be here at the forums if it weren't for him. Yes, Jeb & co. are messing up what could be a great future for a great game, but we shouldn't be so eager to abandon it all just because of some people's misdoings. I know I might sound like a pussy by saying this, but going TC scares me. I'm sure that FC is capable enough to completely overhaul MC and make his own, awesome version of it but...should we really forget where we came from?

Other mods (TerraFirmaCraft, for example) tried doing their own thing. But it's never the same thing. I can only see in RTH a way of keeping the old "MC feel" alive. That spark is what got me into this game. If we could, in some crazy way, still maintain it while getting all that Home or a conversion could give us, then I'd be truly happy.

[Utterbob]

That gives me a lot of hope, because it means that one way or another, I'll be going "Home" in the near future and not with the mythical "next release with the mod API" of Minecraft.

One other "sub-option" I'll mention that I've been considering. If I go the Return To Home route, I've been considering an option that will allow players to just start there.

So, for those of you that have developed worlds that you want to hold onto, you can do so, and for those that just want the full BTW experience right from the get-go, or who are running a server and only want that play-style, you'd have that option too. I don't *think* it would be too much hassle to implement or maintain such an option, and in this case I think it would be worth it.

Personally I would feel losing the purpose of my world is no different to backing it up along with a legacy copy of MC and visiting it now and again. It's, to me at least, the same as starting over.

That said I still think the idea of being able to start in Home is a great compromise but I would love to see RTH as another dimension to MC; Overworld, Nether, The End & Home all as dimensions with their own reasons for existing and their own reasons for having the player spend time in them. Even with Home being separated I still like the idea that I can come back to my vMC world with Home blocks/items and continue to extend my 'residence' even though I may now be living primarily in Home. I think the 'ideal' in my mind at the moment is that Home is stand alone but there are elements that do not exist and/or reasons to head back to the overworld now and again, at least some sort of draw, if not requirement. That said I trust your design judgment, you have repeatedly proven that it is solid.

The one suggestion that I will throw into the pot here is that seem to be tracking more towards option 2 so I am assuming has the greater weight of benefits in your eyes currently. The downside of it might be lessened if you allow others to assist on the conversion program as/when it is needed. Ultimately there is no reason that has to be a part of the mod, it can just be a 3rd party tool players need to run on their world files once, so the standards conflicts and other complications you avoid by working solo are only put aside for this one-off project.

In my view that’s a small amount of work now to get you fully back on the path you want to be on. The trade off is more work later but that may be much later if Mojang follow form. Heck it may be almost none at all if they implement their own conversion like they did for Anvil (may be more a case of tweaking theirs to include mod ID's). Either way I think it has the most benefits and the most workable downsides when compared to other options.

EDIT: Couple of typos

[odranoel]

Honestly the only problem I have with the sequel idea is when I imagine how crazy epic it would be for Home to be connected to the previous world you made. Like you work your way up to it and theres proof you did and also the fact that you HAVE to work your way up to it. For example, what's to stop anyone from just skipping the first BTW altogether and heading to the second.

thats what i meant by haveing two versions that work together. so you have to go through the orgi btw tech tree and going through the device just loads up a diff version of MC (instead of a new dimension, but its basically the same thing) and that would be the only way to get this other version of MC to load. so you cant skip half the mod and start directly in home. i think this would preserve all of our worlds and still allow FC to do his thing.

but again i have no idea how technically possible it is to have one version of MC close down and then launch another modified version of it self, and only having it do so when going through the "device".

Edit: forgot to mention this however would not allow us to bring anything from home back to the overworld.

[muggsbud]

Oh, FC forgot to mention. If you decide to move the mod to another game you might want to look up Star Forge. It's sort of minecraft/halo/terarria/borderlands all put together. I know it's not in the same flavor as MC BTW, but it has promise.

It's also in early development so the Devs might be eager to get the business that would bring.

related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSmlrPcX ... r_embedded

[FlowerChild]

but again i have no idea how technically possible it is to have one version of MC close down and then launch another modified version of it self, and only having it do so when going through the "device".

Not at all feasible. It's not an option worth pursuing.

Oh, FC forgot to mention. If you decide to move the mod to another game you might want to look up Star Forge. It's sort of minecraft/halo/terarria/borderlands all put together. I know it's not in the same flavor as MC BTW, but it has promise.

Gods no. That game came up in IRC last Friday, and my reaction to it is "overly ambitious pipe dream that will never come to completion".

I've checked it out in the past, and while of course it seems wicked-cool in theory, the "theory" part is the problem.

Very reasonable scope is a big part of what initially attracted me to MC, and the reason why games like Towns and Project Zomboid interest me. Being overly ambitious is one of the biggest mistakes you can make in game development. Doing so with open-ended sandbox games, which are inherently complex and ambitious in nature, is even more deadly.

[Ferrus.Manus]

How possible would be releasing Home as separate mod now but merging it together with regular BtW once the extended IDs come out? Pipe dream or feasible? Since I believe you would still use the technical core from BtW for the BtW:Coming Home merging them back together, especially if you developed it with that in mind sounds reasonable.

[FlowerChild]

How possible would be releasing Home as separate mod now but merging it together with regular BtW once the extended IDs come out? Pipe dream or feasible?

Guys: please read the whole thread before posting (or at least my posts). Please. I don't want to answer the same questions over and over again.

[PatriotBob]

Oh, FC forgot to mention. If you decide to move the mod to another game you might want to look up Star Forge. It's sort of minecraft/halo/terarria/borderlands all put together. I know it's not in the same flavor as MC BTW, but it has promise.

It's also in early development so the Devs might be eager to get the business that would bring.

related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSmlrPcX ... r_embedded

I think attaching on to a project at that point in development would bring as much headache as it would save, if not more. The project is in such a unstable point (read: Alpha, it's changing) it would make it hard to build off of reliably.

I'd also argue that their implementation of terrain generation (a particular flavor of marching cube) would have some issues to directly correspond to MC's manner of resource gathering. But that's just personal opinion and FC might prefer the method they've chosen.

Edit: Appears I was too slow...

[dawnraider]

Doing so with open-ended sandbox games, which are inherently complex and ambitious in nature, is even more deadly.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the way Mojang is going with the "infinite" block ids and the covers-all mod API (that effectively eliminates the possibility of "mods", and only plugins can exist, and which we've waited for over a year now.).

[muggsbud]

That's why i haven't bought it yet, and i was kind of hoping you of all people wouldn't say that, but one can dream can't he?

Although i'm a little sad to see it broken into two parts, if that's what you choose, as switching from BTW to BTW2 could be rather heart breaking as they were originally intended for one 'save' not two 'games.'

Anyways; it's good to see progress being made whatever you decide to do, I'm confident you'll build it well. Just go for it.

[Ferrus.Manus]

Guys: please read the whole thread before posting (or at least my posts). Please. I don't want to answer the same questions over and over again.

Sorry, can't believe I missed your response a page back.

Doing so with open-ended sandbox games, which are inherently complex and ambitious in nature, is even more deadly.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the way Mojang is going with the "infinite" block ids and the covers-all mod API (that effectively eliminates the possibility of "mods", and only plugins can exist, and which we've waited for over a year now.).

This actually makes me go towards implementing your own extended block ID fix and simply going forwards since this whole Mod API seems more vaporous each time I hear something new about it.

[abzu93]

Damn, that is quite lot of info to take in all at once.

I'm for whatever FC decides is best. I trust his design sense, his programming chops, and ability to make a completely satisfying, challenging game. He's proven it over and over with BTW thus far; consistently making this game work against the immense weight of generic public opinion, and increasingly bizarre choices of the vMC team. So, the dude has my vote, whatever path he takes.

For what it's worth, I don't really worry about losing my worlds because I backup everything regularly. If I get nostalgic and want to play in one of my (then incomparable) builds, I can always load that version of BTW, and the whole shebang, and go at it. It's not *that* much of an inconvenience.

[FlowerChild]

On the other hand, I also love minecraft. I love how it's open ended and anything goes. I do not need much encouragement or artificial goals, I set my own. Btw has until recently been extremely aligned with what I wanted from vmc. Only 2 of the hardcore changes (beds and f3) have alienated me, and made me wish they were optional. So yeah, I love btw. And I have a huge respect for it's creator.

Actually Morm, you'll probably be surprised that I at least partially agree with you here.

Hardcore Buckets in particular doesn't feel natural to me in my BTW world. The same one I've been playing in for close to two years now, and I've been playing more and more with it off recently. I doubt there's anyone here more attached to their world than I am.

As I've described here: this wasn't the route I had planned. I think many of the recent hardcore changes are more representative of my frustration at not being able to work on the stuff I planned to be working on (in Home), and it's seeping into my work as a result. This is beginning to leave mod worlds, including my own, in a weird hybrid state caught somewhere between where the mod actually is, and where I wanted it to be by now.

I can not emphasize enough for me how frustrating it is to have been excited and eager to move forward with Home and make a fresh start of it free from vanilla design constraints, only to have that drag out for this long. As you guys probably know, I'm a man of action, and I move very quickly on things once I've planned them out and am convinced they're a good idea. With Home though, while it's what I've been convinced was the next step for the mod for six months now, and convinced it was the best thing for everyone involved, I've been left spinning my wheels and feeling largely impotent in being able to move forward with it. Thus, the plans for it started to make appearances in places not originally intended.

If I move ahead with this, one of the last things I'll probably do on BTW 1 is make these hardcore changes optional, and many of them will probably be off by default. People will still be able to run their servers that way, especially while they wait for BTW to develop, but people will be able to configure it the way they want.

This is the difference between me moving on to working on the gameplay experience I actually want, instead of feeling "stuck" with the one we currently have and trying to adapt it to the direction I want to go in.

BTW 2 will be where the real brutality happens, where nothing is optional, and everything is always hard. I'll leave BTW 1 on the other hand to be played largely how it always has been before these hardcore changes began.

[FlowerChild]

The one suggestion that I will throw into the pot here is that seem to be tracking more towards option 2 so I am assuming has the greater weight of benefits in your eyes currently.

Actually, you've fallen way behind. The currently favored solution seems to be #36 :)

[FlowerChild]

BTW guys: it's worth noting that all the sound effects at the end of that video, with the exception of the growl at the end, were all in-game with just the video itself fading to black.

I actually stepped into that device six months ago and took my first steps around a prototype version of home back then before this blockID nonsense happened and I felt it necessary to put everything on hold.

Just thought I'd point that out to highlight how very frustrating it has been for me to have to hold back on this all this time.

[ignika42]

Personally I'd go with option 2, extending the IDs yourself, and then if the time ever comes that Mojang actually does release their own block IDs, depending on whichever one has you doing the least amount of boring coding, either make the one-time converter for switching to their format, or just rip theirs out and keep your own extended ID setup.

Considering that BTW is meant to be stand-alone anyhow, would there really be any downside to using your own extended IDs at that point rather than converting to Mojang's?