Flower's Dev Diary (Week of November 27th)

[milkmandan]

+1 for vote of confidence in whatever path you choose being good. I'm willing to dump my world to move on to btw 2 in other words if that's the path you choose.

For alternate engines/games options: Hard to say if it's up to snuff since I haven't played it since way back when it first came out, but minetest seems to have gotten some good traction. Open source C++ with lua api, so possible to fork or mod as desired.

[FlowerChild]

Guys, I just wanted to thank you all for the outpouring of support here. Seriously: this has been eating at me for months, and it's great to finally get it off my chest.

It has me feeling very positive right now, which is great. I think what has become clear to me here is that a solution can be found, and that it's time to move forward on this, one way or another.

That gives me a lot of hope, because it means that one way or another, I'll be going "Home" in the near future and not with the mythical "next release with the mod API" of Minecraft.

One other "sub-option" I'll mention that I've been considering. If I go the Return To Home route, I've been considering an option that will allow players to just start there.

So, for those of you that have developed worlds that you want to hold onto, you can do so, and for those that just want the full BTW experience right from the get-go, or who are running a server and only want that play-style, you'd have that option too. I don't *think* it would be too much hassle to implement or maintain such an option, and in this case I think it would be worth it.

[FlowerChild]

So, surely its better to go for an option where there is at least a CHANCE that the worlds may survive? Better Than Wolves feels like a story, that you've been slowly telling us since the beginning of the mod. In that respect, the Return to Home will set the stage for a new beginning, but I'm not sure it'd feel right without it having been the result of what the players have strived towards for so long.

Yes, this is a very valid point in itself. There's been a heck of a lot of buildup and hints to the RTH within the mod itself for a long time now, and much of the mod's "story" revolves around it. It would indeed be a shame to lose that.

[Ferrus.Manus]

That gives me a lot of hope, because it means that one way or another, I'll be going "Home" in the near future and not with the mythical "next release with the mod API" of Minecraft.

This is probably the best news I have heard in a long time. Thank you and godspeed FC!

[magikeh]

We are your community, your followers and we all look to you to make this game something amazing. I'd like to thank you for bringing this to the community and getting us involved with this huge decision, we are with you. Best of luck to you and the future! ^_^/

[SterlingRed]

Yes, this is a very valid point in itself. There's been a heck of a lot of buildup and hints to the RTH within the mod itself for a long time now, and much of the mod's "story" revolves around it. It would indeed be a shame to lose that.

Only thing I have to say on this option though, is at what cost? What will this design choice cost the mod in development time and your sanity by maintaining this kind of compatibility for the sake of our nostalgia?

[Ceunon]

So, surely its better to go for an option where there is at least a CHANCE that the worlds may survive? Better Than Wolves feels like a story, that you've been slowly telling us since the beginning of the mod. In that respect, the Return to Home will set the stage for a new beginning, but I'm not sure it'd feel right without it having been the result of what the players have strived towards for so long.

This. So much this.
Having Home without our previous world wouldn't be the same thing. BTW is more than just gameplay (the gameplay is incredible, don't get me wrong).

I've been playing MC since beta 1.5. Heck, I remember that the first "automated" build I've done was a minecart station using the old infinite speed boost you got from stacking carts going back and forth. Then I started playing some mods, just for the sake of it. I tried a couple, then found BTW. Damn, it was awesome. I played it for a long time in an old world I had, alongside some other mods. I remember watching Battosay's old vids (the only guy out there making BTW videos at the time) and going nuts when I made my first hemp farm, back when the BD didn't need Mossy Coble. When FC threw combatibility out the window, I thought that I should start a new world, dropping all the other mods; I couldn't play vMC anymore. It wouldn't be the same. I've been playing in that world since then, though I've stopped for a while since my PC can't handle so many contraptions without Optifine.

Why all of this sentimental crap? Well, as some have stated before me, BTW (and MC, to some extent - yes, looking at you, Notch) has its story. I'd hate to see it flushed down the toilet when there's a chance, even if the tiniest, of saving things AND going Home. Sure, I could live without all of that if FC needed us to, but it wouldn't be the very same thing. Home is Home, after all.

Edit: For the sake of clarity.

[Sarudak]

That gives me a lot of hope, because it means that one way or another, I'll be going "Home" in the near future and not with the mythical "next release with the mod API" of Minecraft.

One other "sub-option" I'll mention that I've been considering. If I go the Return To Home route, I've been considering an option that will allow players to just start there.

So, for those of you that have developed worlds that you want to hold onto, you can do so, and for those that just want the full BTW experience right from the get-go, or who are running a server and only want that play-style, you'd have that option too. I don't *think* it would be too much hassle to implement or maintain such an option, and in this case I think it would be worth it.

Sounds great! Glad to hear you're feeling positive! And this is an option that I would definitely appreciate. I still think going TC would be easier and provide more design coherence. But I know how important preserving your world and other's is to you so that option does make a lot of sense.

[ziyakaz]

One other "sub-option" I'll mention that I've been considering. If I go the Return To Home route, I've been considering an option that will allow players to just start there.

So, for those of you that have developed worlds that you want to hold onto, you can do so, and for those that just want the full BTW experience right from the get-go, or who are running a server and only want that play-style, you'd have that option too. I don't *think* it would be too much hassle to implement or maintain such an option, and in this case I think it would be worth it.

If this ends up being feasible, that would be really awesome. That you're considering this also shows a lot of concern for both existing worlds and people new to the mod, which I really appreciate.

[Calcifire3691]

All your reasoning is valid. But you have to remember that Option 2 could be a tremendous amount of extra work for FC. And not the fun kind of work that he thrives on but the soul-crushingly boring kind of work that he hates.

true, but if we're willing to give up worlds for the sake of option three, why would we refuse to give up our worlds for option two to save FC the awfulness?

if FC chooses option 3, we lose worlds forever, if he chooses 2, best case scenario, the conversion is relatively painless and we keep our old worlds, and the worst case scenario is that the converter is the programming equivalent of being stabbed in the face repeatedly, in which case FC can just say "screw it" and we'll be in the same position as option three, but with the possibility to rebuild

put simply, the worst case scenario of option 2 leaves us in the same position as if FC chose option 3, except we'd have vMC and "old BTW" still there

then again, I've no experience with this sort of thing, so I can only speak as an end user, and I'm probably missing something obvious :P

edit: damn this thread moves fast :P

[MrLemon]

I am for a TC, however, I don't feel that much connection to my world, so my point may be invalid in the long run. I also agree with Sarudak that at least conceptually a TC would offer a much more cohesive experience. In the long run however I don't care all to much as long as I can play BTW, especially if I could just start off at Home from the beginning.

EDIT: I'd like to add that with the recent hardcore changes to the mod, much of what you could do before has been made impossible or much more difficult, and I feel that starting over fresh might not be a bad thing. (Although as I said I don't feel much connection to my world so again my point here might be invalid.)

[Azdoine]

My thoughts? I think Home shoule be a seperate dimention. The idea of a "Minecraft Level Two", or Second Quest is very appealing to me as a player: overcoming the challenges of a game, then moving to a harder, different version of the same game. The atmosphere of it all and the almost nostalgic effect would be huge.

HOWEVER

If developing Home instead of another option would unduly hamper the development of BTW, then you should do what will be best for the mod. I trust you and your game design far more than I do most big-name brand developers.

[Equitis1024]

That gives me a lot of hope, because it means that one way or another, I'll be going "Home" in the near future and not with the mythical "next release with the mod API" of Minecraft.

That is such great news. I came to this mod a few weeks after discovering Minecraft and have grown extremely impressed by your game design ability. Better than Wolves updates are the only thing keeping me excited about this game, and I would happily accept whatever route you decide to take in order to further realize your vision for it. I love my current world, but if necessary I would sacrifice it without hesitation for a fresh start in Home.

Thanks for all your hard work!

[FlowerChild]

Ok, a new option just occurred to me based on this conversation:

What if I were to do something I haven't seen a mod do before and develop a *true* sequel?

I mean, what if I spend the time now to give BTW an "end" that players can work towards that acts as the culmination of their efforts and completes the current story arc. I would then continue to maintain BTW for future versions of MC, but all further development on it would stop.

Then, I develop BTW: The Return To Home, as a brand new mod and sequel to the original, that picks up the story where BTW leaves it off. That mod then is my total conversion.

The only difference between this and my previous plans from a player perspective is that the trip to Home would be entirely one way. Once you make the journey, there's no way back.

Sure, you could go back and play your old world whenever you choose to with BTW 1, just like you can with any game that has a sequel, but if you want to continue the story, you play BTW 2.

To me, this has all the advantages of going TC, while preserving the integrity of the original BTW as it stands.

What do you guys think?

[Ethazeriel]

Just to add my two cents:

I love my world. I started it back when Beta 1.8 came out, over a year ago. Since then, almost all of my playtime has been in this world. I've invested many hundreds of hours into this world. Obviously, it means a lot to me, especially with the more advanced automated systems I've recently started to build. One of the first things I made in this world was my 32 steel blocks, and since then I've always had the supplies to build a device ready and waiting for the moment when I could. If it is at all possible for me to keep this world, then that would be my preferred option. I would hate to lose this thing that I've put so much time and work into. I know that I could always save an old version, but it would never feel quite the same.

In the end, I want what is best for you and the mod itself. If that means a TC, then you have my support in that decision. If at all possible, however, I would much rather keep my world and the work and time invested in it intact, rather than not.

[TGLumberjack]

I started playing BTW towards the end of this summer. I've been lurking on the forums for a couple months, since as I started to really get into the mod I became more interested in the design philosophy and enjoy keeping up with recent developments. Hopefully I'm not displaying too much ignorance in my following post:

I have no background in programming or game design, but ever since I got into vMC back in 2010 I couldn't help but feel that certain aspects of it were lagging (both literally and figuratively :-P). However, I trusted Notch's vision and patiently waited for Mojang to follow through with their design and build up to a more complete version of the game. The "official release" came out and needless to say I was disappointed. Besides the obvious lack of good programming in vMC, I don't think I'm quite as critical of the "post-Notch development era" as many people in this community are, but when I started playing BTW I began to come to have complete trust in FC's design vision. Finally, a mod that has a clear design vision, gets regularly and quickly updated, and truly fits with the overall Minecraft theme.

But with that said, BTW isn't the only aspect of my Minecraft experience. I still play vMC on servers or LAN with friends who may not want to try out BTW (although I always encourage them to do so!), and sometimes there are other mods that I want to try out. Additionally, I hold world integrity (not breaking my saves) as a very high priority. I'm a busy guy, and sometimes I'll go weeks without playing. I simply cannot afford the time commitment of constantly starting new saves. Until starting BTW back in August 2012, I had played almost exclusively on the same world since September 2010.

Bearing these things in mind, I can't help but feel like FC's original design vision for TRH is by far the best. Being able to experience FC's vision of BTW-MC alongside the vMC (or an otherwise modded MC) seems like heaven to me, and to compromise on that end goal just because the blokes over at Mojang can't get their priorities straight seems like a real bummer.

Is there no way to temporarily implement a TC that could function almost as a beta for what would become the RTH feature? If this alternate "Home" world truly functions independent of the vMC world, then couldn't the "beta TC" be "inserted" into the vMC code once Mojang gets their collective rear in gear? It seems like the whole blockID thing is one of the major setbacks for BTW's continued development, and I guess it'd be a real pain to convert all the blockIDs in the "beta TC" to something else once that gets implemented in vanilla, but it still seems worth it to preserve the integrity of FC's original idea. (pretty much what Lord Cake was saying a few posts up)

I am a very patient person. I can wait. If BTW stopped being updated for a few months I'd be fine. But if a permanent TC is the most viable option then ultimately I'm ok with that too. I just think FC's original design vision is worth keeping even if it means waiting.

The whole sequel idea is intriguing, as well, though.

Finally, I know this is radical and probably ban-worthy, lol, but what if FC sought to contribute to the ModAPI development? Hopefully (and this is a big hope, I know), with Minecon being over there will be more focus from both Mojang and the API design team. I would entirely support FC if he sought to temporarily rejoin the modding community at large to work on finally releasing the ModAPI. I gather that there's some bad blood there, but that's supposedly the ultimate direction of Mojang's MC development, so why not put some effort into ensuring it gets done correctly? But as I mentioned before...I'm patient.

[Thordan Ssoa]

Ok, a new option just occurred to me based on this conversation:

What if I were to do something I haven't seen a mod do before and develop a *true* sequel?

I mean, what if I spend the time now to give BTW an "end" that players can work towards that acts as the culmination of their efforts and completes the current story arc. I would then continue to maintain BTW for future versions of MC, but all further development on it would stop.

Then, I develop BTW: The Return To Home, as a brand new mod and sequel to the original, that picks up the story where BTW leaves it off. That mod then is my total conversion.

The only difference between this and my previous plans from a player perspective is that the trip to Home would be entirely one way. Once you make the journey, there's no way back.

Sure, you could go back and play your old world whenever you choose to with BTW 1, just like you can with any game that has a sequel, but if you want to continue the story, you play BTW 2.

To me, this has all the advantages of going TC, while preserving the integrity of the original BTW as it stands.

What do you guys think?

Yes. I think that's all I need to say is yes.

[Azdoine]

That's not my preferred option (the clear connection between MC and Home was a selling point to me), but it is a much more feasible option, technically, in the long run.

I say you should go for it. Whatever improves the mod.

[walker_boh_65]

-SNIP-
To me, this has all the advantages of going TC, while preserving the integrity of the original BTW as it stands.

What do you guys think?

A squeal sounds like an excellent solution to this problem. It seems to be the best of both worlds option, quite literally in this case.

My only question would be how much more of a time sink do you see this becoming with future releases of MC?

[Ulfengaard]

To me, this has all the advantages of going TC, while preserving the integrity of the original BTW as it stands.

What do you guys think?

Since we were funneling toward a single point anyway (the portal), this would still make a lot of sense both gameplay and story-wise. I like the idea.

[Ceunon]

What do you guys think?

Imo, that would be the same thing as doing TC right from the start. I might be putting it bluntly, but what is really the point of "finishing" BTW if we're going to drop it in the future? There's no need of "building" more nostalgia by developing the mod a bit further and then ending it. Wouldn't it be more practical if we either dropped it now and did TC, or kept working around the "current" lore we have and went towards RTH? I'd stick with the latter, as I've said before.

[MrLemon]

Ok, a new option just occurred to me based on this conversation:
What if I were to do something I haven't seen a mod do before and develop a *true* sequel?

Sounds to me like the best option so far, really it has the advantages of both sides, and the added advantage of emphasizing that BTW is a game in its own right with a beginning and end, and not just any mod.

[PatriotBob]

While fairly minimal, it would be a drag to have 2 code bases to maintain whenever Minecraft is updated. But as much as I'd like some manner of transport between "Home" and vanilla, (love the idea of "Home" by the way) splitting the two into separate mods does make those most since rather than waiting on a vanilla solution to blockIDs.

While a terribly exciting prospect, writing your own entire game is a lot of not-gameplay things for quite some time. And this being a project for your pleasure I'd worry how much joy you'd have left for the project after fighting graphics engines, collisions and other framework things that aren't what you love.

[Ferrus.Manus]

What if I were to do something I haven't seen a mod do before and develop a *true* sequel?
-snip-
What do you guys think?

It could work, but wouldn't maintaining 2 separate mod with different code-bases would be extra work? And since from what imagine BtW2 would still have some basics like regular BtW like mechanical system and such, what happens if you change some stuff in BtW2 wouldn't you want to implement that change in BtW. Frankly I think it would act as huge distraction since it would be pretty hard t simply stop updating the mod, you will always get new ideas you will want to add.

[Calcifire3691]

Ok, a new option just occurred to me based on this conversation:

What if I were to do something I haven't seen a mod do before and develop a *true* sequel?

I mean, what if I spend the time now to give BTW an "end" that players can work towards that acts as the culmination of their efforts and completes the current story arc. I would then continue to maintain BTW for future versions of MC, but all further development on it would stop.

Then, I develop BTW: The Return To Home, as a brand new mod and sequel to the original, that picks up the story where BTW leaves it off. That mod then is my total conversion.

The only difference between this and my previous plans from a player perspective is that the trip to Home would be entirely one way. Once you make the journey, there's no way back.

Sure, you could go back and play your old world whenever you choose to with BTW 1, just like you can with any game that has a sequel, but if you want to continue the story, you play BTW 2.

To me, this has all the advantages of going TC, while preserving the integrity of the original BTW as it stands.

What do you guys think?

the only potential problems I can imagine there is that it would split the community between users of BTW and BTW:TRTH, and that switching between the two would be difficult unless you use a jar swapper, multimc or mcpatcher.
other than that, it sounds like a great idea, it removes the one drawback of option three :P