Flower's Dev Diary (Week of November 27th)

[Stormweaver]

The brand idea could be interesting.

"Dwarf fortress: Better Than Wolverines"

[Ferrus.Manus]

Quoting from the thread if Off-Topic

Indeed a rewrite would probably be a deathblow to most of the mods out there as it would virtually require a rewrite on their side. As far as the modding community is concerned I can't think of anything much worse they could do than a total rewrite. They'd be better off if they just stopped working on minecraft altogether... :P

Man, I so wish they would just stop working on it.

Why simply not act as if they did? Just treat the 1.4.5 (or maybe 1.5.x if new render engine actually improves performance significantly) as last MC version ever released before meteorite struck Mojang office stopping all development and do with MC codebase whatever you want?

[kaos78414]

I'm for Total Conversion (fuck my worlds, I would be genuinely excited to start a new one given this option).

I probably don't have anything constructive to add that you haven't heard or thought of already. So I'll just say that I trust your judgement as a designer, whichever path you choose. I think many others will feel the same. At this point, and I don't think this can be said too much, we're playing BTW, not MC.

Also, fuck the whiners, man. You make the decision that makes you happiest, and everything else will follow. You might get some flak, but that almost feels paramount to moving forward when it comes to this mod. Someone's gotta get pissed off or all's not right with the world, haha.

[Ceunon]

Man, I so wish they would just stop working on it.

Why simply not act as if they did? Just treat of the 1.4.5 (or maybe 1.5.x if new render engine actually improves performance significantly) as last MC version ever released before meteorite struck Mojang office stopping all development and do with MC codebase whatever you want?

I would suggest something similar. Give Mojang a deadline: if they don't give us the extra block ids by day X, do it yourself and drop vanilla.

[Mr_Hosed]

On the TotalConversion option:

TerraFirmaCraft went this route and people seem to be more then OK with the crazy hard that team has done.

[SterlingRed]

I'm glad you posted about this. I've been wondering for a long time what was happening with return to home and figured something must be going down.

From the posts you've made (you being fc), and the discussion here, and being part of this community nearly daily for over a year, I can see that dependency on an external platform, has always led to at least some level of frustration or grief for you that has impacted the development of the mod. From the options listed, there is only one that lets us still play minecraft and gives you the creative freedom you need to run full fledged forward without looking back or wondering when the next mojang wall will appear in front of you. Without complete design freedom, you will always have something looming over your head restricting you. This means total conversion is the only way to truely fix the problem here.

From a players perspective, I love minecraft. If keeping minecraft as we know it as an entrance way were a workable option that wasn't limiting you in the mods future development, i'd be all for it. However, if I'm being totally honest with myself, if btw ceased to exist, I couldn't go back to vanilla or another mod. There's nothing quite like it. Continuing limping along as you are now waiting for the unknown extended block id's will probably eventually strangle this mods development which very could well lead me to leaving the game anyway. Thus as a player, I want the mod I play to be able to continue providing me with a great play experience. If TC is the best way to do that, which it looks like it is, that's what I want.

Really reading the options and the discussion here, there's really only one good option that gives you what you want, and what we want (minecraft as a game in your control). Fuck everything, go total conversion.

[Panda]

On the TotalConversion option:

TerraFirmaCraft went this route and people seem to be more then OK with the crazy hard that team has done.

I was gonna mention that but held off, i do agree that that route would be best! cant wait to make new textures! :D

[MrLemon]

Quoting from the thread if Off-Topic

Indeed a rewrite would probably be a deathblow to most of the mods out there as it would virtually require a rewrite on their side. As far as the modding community is concerned I can't think of anything much worse they could do than a total rewrite. They'd be better off if they just stopped working on minecraft altogether... :P

Man, I so wish they would just stop working on it.

Why simply not act as if they did? Just treat the 1.4.5 (or maybe 1.5.x if new render engine actually improves performance significantly) as last MC version ever released before meteorite struck Mojang office stopping all development and do with MC codebase whatever you want?

With this though, one click of 'Update Now', and BTW is no longer viable for you to use. In addition, there will not be any new users as the mod will no support their version of Minecraft.

[obl1terat1ion]

yeah... after reading all of this i say go TC.

[The Phoenixian]

Well, this explains quite a lot I had been curious about with regards to the mod development. You have my sympathies for this tedium and uncertainty.

My two cents on the options: Speaking as a player who themselves has gotten attached to a world even when parts of it get broken, I would vastly prefer to have it still be something that exists and is used in at least some manner, if only for nostalgia, rather than being relegated to a more and more outdated version of Minecraft.

That said, since joining this community, I have come to fully trust your expertise as a game designer and should you decide that Total Conversion is the least inferior option, and I would not be surprised if it is, I would be willing to start a new world and leave the old behind. (I only ask that you permit me to hold a funeral. :P)

Why simply not act as if they did? Just treat of the 1.4.5 (or maybe 1.5.x if new render engine actually improves performance significantly) as last MC version ever released before meteorite struck Mojang office stopping all development and do with MC codebase whatever you want?

What are you suggesting? That FC get a license From Notch to make a branch off of Minecraft? Hell, I'd go for that. :P (I don't think it's likely to be something that could ever work out, but if it was I'd go for it.)

[Ferrus.Manus]

With this though, one click of 'Update Now', and BTW is no longer viable for you to use. In addition, there will not be any new users as the mod will no support their version of Minecraft.

You can always degrade MC version using one of may tools available (like MCNostalgia) . And BTW was never about attracting lot of new users (if anythings that a negative thing, see Yogaboo invasion) it's about FC creating game that is fun for him and several people who thinks like him. And new players will still find this mod if they want too.

What are you suggesting? That FC get a license From Notch to make a branch off of Minecraft? Hell, I'd go for that. :P (I don't think it's likely to be something that could ever work out, but if it was I'd go for it.)

No, simply when a new version of Minecraft come out FC could simply not update mod to it and continue to develop it for the current version. Simply act as if new version never was released.

[haphazardnuke]

I would like to add my small voice to this discussion by pointing out that going TC basically is writing your own game. You would have the power to make whatever sweeping changes you felt like, while permitting the tatters of vanilla to handle whatever you didn't want to deal with. Plus, worlds could still be compatible, since it would still be Minecraft. Technically. Sorta how Inspector Gadget is technically human, just cooler.

If BTW were to become a "brand" of mod as you say, I would probably melt from sheer happiness if BTW tech found its way into Terraria. Though, I have no idea how possible all the amazing things you've done here would be in Terraria, and as with your examples, it has 2D graphics... Ah well, can't help but dream.

Back to reality, I'm just going to join the group that refers to you as the real developer of MC. Pick whichever path you want, and we will follow. I vote do the extended IDs your way, and if Mojang ever comes through, well, there are lots of talented amateur programmers on the forums here that would be eager to save you time by writing the conversion utility themselves. Of course, you'll probably want to make it yourself to guarantee it is done right, but the point still stands that you have the community behind you wherever you turn. *cowering minion thumbs-up*

<BTW forums = ninja town>

[Chomamonka]

TC in my opinion is the only way to go. RTH would be really cool but I feel like we would all just do our darndest to get through the Overworld as fast as possible. You have in the past talked about not wanting to obsolete things in minecraft. "Home" would obsolete the Overworld IMO. I say go TC.

Total Conversion all the way!

[Thordan Ssoa]

-Fuck the blockIDs and just plow forward with Home. This obviously isn't practical as I would rapidly run out. What we're basically talking about here is me having a separate blockID for *everything* in the new world. In other words, if I want my own version of dirt or sand, then I need a blockID. How many blockIDs are there in MC at present? 120 or so? So yeah, that's no really feasible. Although, granted, I've come along way in my metadata usage, and vMC makes terrible use of them (like dirt definitely doesn't need it's own blockID), so I may be able to trim those numbers down drastically. This option may therefore still be on the table, but it would still probably leave me in a position of having to sweat over every single blockID, which would mean a lot of extra work due to how it complicates the code.

-Risk fucking people's worlds at some point in the future and go ahead with extending blockIDs myself right now. I don't like this option because of the potential damage to people's worlds, and knowing that I won't be able to tolerate it in the end, that it will likely mean that I'll end up investing a shitload of mind-numbing work into some kind of world convertor utility when Mojang releases their own solution. However, committing myself to doing so when that day arrives may be preferable to the current situation, so it's not off the table either.

-Fuck everything and go full TC (total conversion). Basically, set aside a month or so to work on it, then release "Better Than Wolves 2" (or whatever witty name I come up with ;) ) as a brand new mod. BTW as it is now would cease to exist. Old worlds would not function with the new mod. Home would become the main world and that's that.

-Fuck myself and keep going the way I've been going. Obviously, I'm not fond of that option :)

You've already said while the first option, being possible, is highly impractical.

In terms of player experience, the second option would likely be the best. However, it would be a mess to work out once the official block ID extension is added, as you've said. So perhaps not so good for you.

The third option seems to be the best of the available for you, and in the end I wouldn't mind it overmuch. I would rate this as creating the second best player experience, and so on an overall might make this the best of your options.

It's quite evident you've been under a fair bit of stress from the community and from Mojang as a result of this situation, so this doesn't really seem viable to the overall health of the mod, or you.

-Fuck Minecraft, write my own game from the ground up, and do it entirely the way I would like. Advantages to this include having complete control over the architecture and thus being able to do many things that aren't currently possible with MC the way it is (like, I'd kill for 8 bits of metadata instead of 4). HUGE disadvantages: it would mean I'm not working on the stuff I really like (gameplay), and you guys would likely not be playing anything BTW related for the next year.

Not the best of options for already stated reasons. The long wait would really not be good for the players, and the hassle of starting over would be huge on you. Bad option overall.

Those are my opinions anyway on all your stated options

[MrLemon]

With this though, one click of 'Update Now', and BTW is no longer viable for you to use. In addition, there will not be any new users as the mod will no support their version of Minecraft.

You can always degrade MC version using one of may tools available (like MCNostalgia) . And BTW was never about attracting lot of new users (if anythings that a negative thing, see Yogaboo invasion) it's about FC creating game that is fun for him and several people who thinks like him. And new players will still find this mod if they want too.

That would require relying on the creator of that tool to continue updating, it would be essentially as if BTW required a mod other than Modloader in order to run. All in all, it doesn't seem very professional and doesn't seem to me personally like the kind of road FC would go down.

[ziyakaz]

I favor total conversion.

Return to Home leaves a portion of the game subject to Mojang's changes, a portion which anyone starting fresh will have to navigate. I worry that this would either consume development time, or, if ignored, compromise the sense of coherency that makes Better Than Wolves so compelling.

[Magick_Miner]

Considering that in the RTH option only the player can travel "Home" and back then this option is no different than a TC with regards to peoples worlds.

You can keep a version of minecraft for 1.4.5 (or whatever point in vMC BTW1 stops) and visit it at any time. But then you can go "Home" and load up BTW2 and play as FC envisioned in a world that was always intended to be started fresh.

Im all for a TC, i stopped reading(and caring about) Mojang game updates and following any pre-releases a while ago, they only disheartened me.

[Wafflewaffle]

I would like to add my small voice to this discussion by pointing out that going TC basically is writing your own game. You would have the power to make whatever sweeping changes you felt like, while permitting the tatters of vanilla to handle whatever you didn't want to deal with. Plus, worlds could still be compatible, since it would still be Minecraft. Technically. Sorta how Inspector Gadget is technically human, just cooler.

I agree with you on the Inspector Gadget (although Robocop is cooler), but TC is NOT like making your own game. Its the difference between reforming a house and building one from scratch. Plus FC would need to tend to all engine and gameplay issues simultaneously, and that would be a pain.

FC im for freezing Minecraft update cycle adn TC the shit out of it.

[Ferrus.Manus]

TL;DR of my previous posts:

-Risk fucking people's worlds at some point in the future and go ahead with extending blockIDs myself right now. I don't like this option because of the potential damage to people's worlds, and knowing that I won't be able to tolerate it in the end, that it will likely mean that I'll end up investing a shitload of mind-numbing work into some kind of world convertor utility when Mojang releases their own solution. However, committing myself to doing so when that day arrives may be preferable to the current situation, so it's not off the table either.

I would say this is preferable since it allows you to freely work now without much time wasted and when/if official solution arrives you can choose between 3 options:
1: The converter you are speaking about, which will quite likely will consume less time than some other solutions/
2: As above, simply not update to version that implements the "official" extended block IDs.
3: Break people worlds. It may be bad but lot of other option would also lead to this and this one at least don't consume bunch of your development time.
and bonus
4: Due to incompetence, excessively high goals and mismanagement the whole mod API projects shrivels and dies and extended block IDs are never released and there are no problem in the first place.

[Calcifire3691]

from the sound of what you said, option 2 sounds like the best choice.

option 1 will require a lot of extra work constantly, and as battlecat points out, it's still only a temporary fix (and from what I understand, would need to be maintained even after the extended ID's, otherwise it's world breaking time)
option 2 will possibly break worlds when mojang finally does get around to the extended ID's
option 3 will DEFINITELY break worlds, and will mess up your plans for "the reason why vMC is so unrealistic" since vMC wouldn't exist

the way I see it, option 2 is the only one that has a CHANCE of not fucking peoples worlds, and depending on how long it takes mojang to get off their arses and implement extended ID's, our old worlds stay of execution could be very generous, it would also give you as much time as you wanted to make a world converter, since we'll be in home most of the time, I doubt we'll be tripping over ourselves to update to get golden potatoes that let you fly or whatever useless thing mojang decides to add.
and even if there is no way whatsoever of saving old worlds when the ID's come, there is always the possibility of keeping a copy of your old world and starting Home from scratch instead of the entire thing.
plus, from a purely end user perspective, it would give us the best of both worlds, we'll get the superior Home AND the shitty overworld, which is something that a TC can't do (I play on a private server with a few friends, and, honestly, if it was a TC, I doubt that they would have even given BTW a chance, the fact that it is still vanilla MC gave them the sense of familiarity they needed to make the plunge, I'm still not sure how I managed to convince them to give up beds :P)

there is also the point that taking option three would result in us definitely losing worlds, whereas two lets us keep our old worlds until mojang adds in the ID's, and if we're willing to sacrifice our worlds for the sake of option three, then option two puts us in the same position, but with the chance to rebuild, even if you decide against making a world converter


of course, it's up to you in the end, you're the one who will be making it after all, it's no good trying to please all of us if it will make you loathe every second of it :P

[Sarudak]

All your reasoning is valid. But you have to remember that Option 2 could be a tremendous amount of extra work for FC. And not the fun kind of work that he thrives on but the soul-crushingly boring kind of work that he hates.

[Lord Cake]

Long time lurker weighing in. Here're my thoughts on this.

Home has had a lot of buildup, and I can say that I've been prepping to go there for a long, long time. I've worked my way up the tech tree, slowly but surely, since before the adventure update. I've built contraptions convoluted and bulky, complicated and unthinkable to me when I simply played vMC. Trapping the souls of the undead, turning them to my nefarious purposes, crafting the finest armour. Just going to the Nether alone has been something I've done oh so much more than I would have otherwise. Seeing my first auto kiln spring to life was a delight, and that which I felt when I saw my Soulforged Steel factory first cough and stutter into mighty action cannot be described with mere words. When I reached 32 Soulforged Steel blocks, I felt a surge of pride unrivalled by any vMC experience. Finally, I was ready to build the Device. I'm sure that many players have had the same or similar experiences to me.

All this, in pursuit of going Home.

I entirely understand your frustration with the blockID situation. The players have been just as excited about the prospect of Home as you have been.

So, surely its better to go for an option where there is at least a CHANCE that the worlds may survive? Better Than Wolves feels like a story, that you've been slowly telling us since the beginning of the mod. In that respect, the Return to Home will set the stage for a new beginning, but I'm not sure it'd feel right without it having been the result of what the players have strived towards for so long.

[BinoAl]

As attached as I am to my worlds, I would gladly give them up for a gameplay experience built entirely by you, FC. I'd be absolutely pumped to hear you were going the TC route

[haphazardnuke]

It sounds like a lot of people are for the TC route. I want to make the obvious point that a TC edits a lot of base classes. That's just how it is, it's what defines a TC. I get that. Why I point this out is that going the TC option increases FC's workload by a rather large amount, and the gain is pretty low at first unless he implements a whole mess of things in the process. I've seen a lot of discussion about the effort vs reward of coding something (especially in the suggestions forum :p ), and it just seems to me that a FC-MC-TC would be a long-term investment with minimal starting gains, especially considering that reworking an engine is a lot less fun than making a new feature.

Yes, implementing the extended block IDs himself is a lot of work too. I guess that's what this boils down to. Which option has the better reward/effort ratio, that's the question, and one that IMO only FC truly can answer.

[Ferrus.Manus]

All your reasoning is valid. But you have to remember that Option 2 could be a tremendous amount of extra work for FC. And not the fun kind of work that he thrives on but the soul-crushingly boring kind of work that he hates.

By option 2 you're talking about writing a converter? Because frankly all of options will require lot of work, and I'm not sure the converter would be that tremendous, actually it's probably least time-consuming, if dullest, solution.