Factorio: A game all about automation

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FlowerChild
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by FlowerChild »

devak wrote:Also, laser turrets are VERY powerful and far easier to set up than any ammo system.
Yeah, that was another weak spot I noticed in the tech progression. As far as I can tell, laser turrets are just an outright better replacement for conventional ones, which is a shame since setting up an auto-loading turret defense would be an interesting little project. I'm finding overall that the game is a bit light on purely practical automation projects like that with most of the automation emphasis seeming to be on producing the research bottles. Like I think the game would be just plain better if laser turrets weren't in it at all or if they required a high tech form of ammunition which called for automated production and distribution as well. The latter approach might encourage setting up the distribution network for your conventional turrets early on, then also using it for the laser ammo as you upgraded your defenses.

On the alien front I played some more in my new save last night, automated green bottles and am in the process of setting up oil processing. Still have only seen that initial attack of 3 small aliens, so yeah, I'd say that the presence and frequency of alien attacks is highly variable dependent on various factors.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by 0player »

I'd like to point out that a dozen of laser turrets causes HUGE power spikes...
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by devak »

0player wrote:I'd like to point out that a dozen of laser turrets causes HUGE power spikes...
i know, i lost an outpost when i was turret-creeping. I've designed a setup where my solar panels are primaries and my steam engines are my secondaries along with a 1.1GJ capacitor bank (normal drain 10MW). Because of my design, power failure goes completely unnoticed until it actually happens (as everything keeps working at full power till the last second).

The solution was simply tripling my steam engine setup, so power spikes aren't exactly a problem. it's a bit like Radars :consuming a ton of power as a sort of soft price, but power rarely is a problem in Factorio.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by FlowerChild »

murillokb wrote:I've reached the "rts" stage of the game on my most recent world. I'm looking foward to know what you guys think about it.
Well, I *think* I've hit the stage you're talking about with my newer non-island game. I had kinda lost interest for awhile as I was basically going through the same motions I had in my previous game just to get back to the point where I had been.

Anyways, not sure "rts" is the right term here. The game seems to have devolved into a 2D action game where I'm driving around killing hives with very little in the way of automation or rts action going on other than me placing a few turrets I can take shelter next to.

Am I missing something here? I don't really see any new gameplay dynamics coming in the tech tree and it looks like I basically just have to kill enough nests to collect enough alien artifacts to eventually research the rocket defense to finish the game.

Honestly, it feels like a bit of a let down. I do know I saw something from the dev about the end game being weak and that it needs more work, and if this is what is meant by that, then I would tend to agree :)
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by devak »

FlowerChild wrote: Honestly, it feels like a bit of a let down. I do know I saw something from the dev about the end game being weak and that it needs more work, and if this is what is meant by that, then I would tend to agree :)
Aside from unlocking oil and the drones, yea that's all you're getting out of mid-late game.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by murillokb »

The "RTS" stage I mean is the point where you use drones for everything.
Destroyer drones do the killing, logistic drones do the transporting and construction drones do the building.
In my opinion that opens a new gameplay option BUT it overpowers everything else.

10 destroyer capsules are enough to annihilate a huge (really huge!) alien base while you just run around to better position your drones. This makes weapons and shields useless. I just need exoskeletons in my power armor MKII to outrun the biters and the drones takes care of the rest. I don't even use the car.

Logistic drones makes me want to rip every single belt off and only use drones for transporting as, with the proper research, they become way more effective in late game. It basically makes all the thinking i've put on my belts obsolete.

The only part of this stage I like is the building. I set up solar panel/accumulator/wall/laser turret/etc assemblers and the I use ghost building or blueprints to order the building of stuff.

I do have fun with all this but it doesn't feel right and that makes me eventually lose interest in playing.

Yes, I know there's tons of rebalancing coming but I don't know how they will solve this without making drones too weak or weapons/belts too effective.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

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devak wrote: Aside from unlocking oil and the drones, yea that's all you're getting out of mid-late game.
Ug. Ok, I think I've largely explored most or all the oil stuff. Haven't researched or played around with the drones part as I didn't really feel a need for them within my base (same with trains).

Yeah, I can't say I feel a strong urge to play beyond this point.

I realized resource bandwidth would quickly become an issue very early on when I started playing. Hence why I built a large "bus" into my first big base. My base in this world is designed around a similar concept:
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Except with a larger "bus" and having left even more room for expansion. As a result, I haven't felt a need for using faster conveyor belts other than the default yellow ones, let alone logistic drones or anything along those lines. I haven't even had to double up on many of my conveyor belts yet. I don't much like mixing 2 resources on a single belt as they then become a pain to separate if you only need 1 in a future project, so I tend to only use both sides for a single resource if I'm running low on bandwidth for it.

I guess in theory this results in a larger base that is supposed to be harder to defend, but I've had very little in the way of issues with attacks, probably due to having forests on most side of my base which are soaking up a good chunk of the pollution I'm producing. I also chose my base location to be able to take advantage of lakes to act as barriers on a large portion of my perimeter and reduce the amount of space I'd have to actively defend.
murillokb wrote:The "RTS" stage I mean is the point where you use drones for everything.
Destroyer drones do the killing, logistic drones do the transporting and construction drones do the building.
In my opinion that opens a new gameplay option BUT it overpowers everything else.
Gotcha. Yeah, as I describe above, I just haven't felt much push towards that. I also played around with some combat drones in the campaign scenario where you're supposed to wipe out a bunch of hives, and didn't really find them to be worth it (found it easier to just drive in circles shooting rockets and retreating to repair my car when it took too much damage), BUT, I don't believe those were destroyers (defenders and poison maybe?), so I guess I haven't seen the full progression there.

The other drone types I just haven't felt a push towards. The armor upgrades (I'm at modular right now) seemed to be the most attractive thing left in the tree for me, and that kinda lead me to wonder if I was just going to be action-game grinding alien artifacts until the end.

It's ok as a diversion here and there I guess, but much like MC, the action element is definitely NOT the strong point of this game :)

And yeah, the game has issues with part overshadowing each other all over the place. I've played with trains in the campaign for example and thought they were super cool. However, in my current game I've felt no desire to use them whatsoever as conveyors seem much cheaper and much more convenient even over long distances.

It's really the same kind of stuff that I've talked about in the past with regards to MC and how the maximum tech the player has access to is ultimately what they will wind up playing with the most, and thus basing your design around "upgrades" to existing features has a tendency to make earlier stuff obsolete very quickly, and largely useless.

You kinda end up working against yourself in that you're working to make your previous work irrelevant. I ran into this a bit with Better Then Buildcraft, and have put a lot of thought into it since, but given this whole creative/automation genre is fairly new, I guess most people are still figuring a lot of it out.
Yes, I know there's tons of rebalancing coming but I don't know how they will solve this without making drones too weak or weapons/belts too effective.
Of course, if this were any other forum you'd be getting "if you don't like it, don't use it!" as a response, and we'd all have to start punching kittens ;)
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by murillokb »

FlowerChild wrote: Ug. Ok, I think I've largely explored most or all the oil stuff. Haven't researched or played around with the drones part as I didn't really feel a need for them within my base (same with trains).

Yeah, I can't say I feel a strong urge to play beyond this point.

I realized resource bandwidth would quickly become an issue very early on when I started playing. Hence why I built a large "bus" into my first big base. My base in this world is designed around a similar concept:
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I haven't made the math of "conveyors vs. trains" yet but the train feels good to use and set up. Even better with multiple trains and signals. Now imagine building a conveyor from the iron vein on the top-right corner of your map. Will it work? yes and there's no penalty for such long belts. I would use a train for that and my only argument is: because they are way cooler.
Except with a larger "bus" and having left even more room for expansion. As a result, I haven't felt a need for using faster conveyor belts other than the default yellow ones, let alone logistic drones or anything along those lines. I haven't even had to double up on many of my conveyor belts yet. I don't much like mixing 2 resources on a single belt as they then become a pain to separate if you only need 1 in a future project, so I tend to only use both sides for a single resource if I'm running low on bandwidth for it.

I guess in theory this results in a larger base that is supposed to be harder to defend, but I've had very little in the way of issues with attacks, probably due to having forests on most side of my base which are soaking up a good chunk of the pollution I'm producing. I also chose my base location to be able to take advantage of lakes to act as barriers on a large portion of my perimeter and reduce the amount of space I'd have to actively defend.
So here's part of my base.
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the quality is bad but i think you can notice that my iron vein just ran out and now need to go find some more. My copper and coal comes with trains and are distributed with drones as the conveyors alone can't handle the influx of stuff coming. (my copper seems to be running low). On the lower left side there is a assembler for drones, that's a very bad idea. I already have hundreds of those things and in late game those are the most energy consuming things you can have. I leave it disabled and only use it when I feel like I could use more drones.

My strategy for this game is "greed is good" so basically I don't go easy on mining, processing, assembling and expanding. Faster belts are a must. There are discussion on the forums about the real advantage of using faster belts but I can't see my base working on normal belts. Unless you are a really freaking good planer and know exactly what you are doing, at some point you won't have space to place new belts, then the drones come out to play.
It's really the same kind of stuff that I've talked about in the past with regards to MC and how the maximum tech the player has access to is ultimately what they will wind up playing with the most, and thus basing your design around "upgrades" to existing features has a tendency to make earlier stuff obsolete very quickly, and largely useless.
Exactly! With inserter stack size upgrades soon you realize that your inserters can move items 5 times faster "from inventory to inventory" than "from belt to inventory" this coupled with drones speed/stack size makes even express belts look too slow.
Of course, if this were any other forum you'd be getting "if you don't like it, don't use it!" as a response, and we'd all have to start punching kittens ;)
there's no forum like this forum :)
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

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murillokb wrote: I haven't made the math of "conveyors vs. trains" yet but the train feels good to use and set up. Even better with multiple trains and signals. Now imagine building a conveyor from the iron vein on the top-right corner of your map. Will it work? yes and there's no penalty for such long belts. I would use a train for that and my only argument is: because they are way cooler.
...
...Exactly! With inserter stack size upgrades soon you realize that your inserters can move items 5 times faster "from inventory to inventory" than "from belt to inventory" this coupled with drones speed/stack size makes even express belts look too slow.
Errr...ok then man, why not by that logic keep using conveyors instead of drones because they are cooler? :)

You seem to be resorting to the same kind of "if you don't like it don't use it" argument, just in reverse, where your only justification for using a feature is because you like it, even if there's a more efficient (and less interesting) method in game of doing the same thing.

I like the trains too, and I really want to use them, but I think not providing a valid gameplay justification for using them is a design error.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by FlowerChild »

BTW: On the solutions front I was thinking that if the mobs went after conveyors like crazy (since they're moving), but left rails alone (since they're not), that might do the trick on promoting trains for long distance transport.

That was actually how I thought it might work at one point until a bunch of my rails got trashed :)
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by DaveYanakov »

Not really a gameplay aspect (at least I sincerely hope it isn't) but I've found that I really need to use trains over long distances else my computer starts grinding. There seems to be much less processor load when using trains as opposed to a similar length of conveyors
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

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DaveYanakov wrote:Not really a gameplay aspect (at least I sincerely hope it isn't) but I've found that I really need to use trains over long distances else my computer starts grinding. There seems to be much less processor load when using trains as opposed to a similar length of conveyors
Hmmm...that does make some sense given all the individual moving objects (like ores) on the conveyers whereas in a train they'd just exist as data in its inventory.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by EvanT »

I find that trains in combination with intelligent arms and boxes provide a better solution to long distance transportation than belts.

I have had set up my oil transportation with drones even over long distance because it would have taken two belt lines to each location (for some reason I was only able to find <0.5 oil springs so I have ~ 12 pumps at different locations) I had constant drone loss due to biters and energy problems but sending specific amounts of empty barrels to about 5 different locations over long distances by belt is just unmanageable.

Then my main iron and copper ore veins were about to ran out and the only suitable replacement was located "next" to a oil spring. So I did build a train to that location and automated iron, copper and coal (even while at that point it was completely replaced by solid fuel from the oil by products) After that I did experiment with the green and red cable and it is quite handy in manage low flow item transportation by rail.

At the source I have intelligent arms checking the item count at the remote station and loading ~ 20 into the train car if if the level falls under a certain threshold.
By this I deliver automatically:
- replacement walls
- replacement laser turrets
- repair kits
- empty barrels and full barrels but the later will be just sent there is no level check involved

This system is highly extendible for an additional item type only two intelligent arms and two coloured cables are needed instead of a whole new belt from base to outpost.

If I would do that by belts I would need at least two belts going from main base to each outpost and one vis versa and there would be lots of items on the belts that by the time the belt is full would need no further support from the base because the belt would act like a magazine.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by murillokb »

DaveYanakov wrote:Not really a gameplay aspect (at least I sincerely hope it isn't) but I've found that I really need to use trains over long distances else my computer starts grinding. There seems to be much less processor load when using trains as opposed to a similar length of conveyors
Good to know that. Accumulator's lightning effects also kills fps, avoid building those near you :P
Errr...ok then man, why not by that logic keep using conveyors instead of drones because they are cooler? :)
this IS the "logic" I am using to play the alpha. And they stop being cool as they become too slow. Well I see that maybe with good planing this won't be a problem at all. Maybe I'll start a new world.
I like the trains too, and I really want to use them, but I think not providing a valid gameplay justification for using them is a design error.
That's what I was trying to say. My argument on trains was meant to sound funny at least :)
FlowerChild wrote:BTW: On the solutions front -snip-
hmm... Very good and simple solution, man :D it seems that there's no discussion on it on the factorio forums, I may start one

edit: ninja'd by Evant
EvanT wrote:-snip-
Yess, that's really when trains get good! I was doing something like that on my other world, but this time I got lucky and there are 4 different oil springs(?) near my base and I manually stocked up stuff on my outpost so I completely forgot about using trains like that.
I really need to start a new world on a harder difficulty now hehe
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by devak »

EvanT wrote:I find that trains in combination with intelligent arms and boxes provide a better solution to long distance transportation than belts.

I have had set up my oil transportation with drones even over long distance because it would have taken two belt lines to each location (for some reason I was only able to find <0.5 oil springs so I have ~ 12 pumps at different locations) I had constant drone loss due to biters and energy problems but sending specific amounts of empty barrels to about 5 different locations over long distances by belt is just unmanageable.
i use a train to long-distance transport oil, locally grouping sources. I also use a train to transport iron from a faraway large iron source.


Still, pretty much all incentive to move on has been killed as the only real thing left for me to do is gather alien orbs and research Modules 3, rocket firing speed and the Rocket Defense.

NOTE: using Drones to repair frontiers is a really cool thing, but sadly it rarely if ever seems needed. I use them for my laser turret creep on bases (against Large Creeps, even with MarkI power armor, Mark II shields and 2 personal lasers its just not enough) to repair the walls and turrets. Still, tactically destroying nearby bases is just way too effective to be free of attacks.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by Larmantine »

So I've bought the game as well, all is well except the fact that I can't find the optimal generation settings for me. I'm looking for something that involves a lot of transporting from one place to another (to use trains), as well as adding extra biters for difficulty. Always when I generate a new world, something seems off as I don't understand the "segmentation" and "starting area" options. Any suggestions?
weldaSB wrote:Edit: grammer
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by devak »

Larmantine wrote:So I've bought the game as well, all is well except the fact that I can't find the optimal generation settings for me. I'm looking for something that involves a lot of transporting from one place to another (to use trains), as well as adding extra biters for difficulty. Always when I generate a new world, something seems off as I don't understand the "segmentation" and "starting area" options. Any suggestions?
As far as i know, Starting Area is a pretty much biter-free area so you can walk around a bit and start a proper game.

Biters do generate over time, so eventually the starting area will be affected by biters too.

The segmentation area, i don't know.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by Taleric »

I just love this art! Reminds me of all the good old games. With current progress and a roadmap to 2015 this is going to be one of my great beta buys.
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Source: http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-57
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by Larmantine »

Taleric wrote:I just love this art! Reminds me of all the good old games. With current progress and a roadmap to 2015 this is going to be one of my great beta buys.
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Source: http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-57
Yeah, I've been following this for the last months, pretty hyped as well. Can't wait for the tank and multiplayer. These guys are doing a great job. Maybe with multiplayer I'll be able to play longer than getting to logistics robots, because that's the threshold where it becomes boring for me.
weldaSB wrote:Edit: grammer
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

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I've been really frustrated that they've been so focused on multiplayer and graphics for the last six months. I just hope they have a bunch of unannounced features besides tanks, gates, and mobile spitters.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by Larmantine »

Marasambala wrote:I've been really frustrated that they've been so focused on multiplayer and graphics for the last six months. I just hope they have a bunch of unannounced features besides tanks, gates, and mobile spitters.
Check out their roadmap. http://www.factorioforums.com/forum/vie ... ?f=3&t=678
After this update they'll just optimize multiplayer and will rework the tech tree, combat etc. So far they've been true to their word.
weldaSB wrote:Edit: grammer
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by FlowerChild »

Marasambala wrote:I've been really frustrated that they've been so focused on multiplayer and graphics for the last six months. I just hope they have a bunch of unannounced features besides tanks, gates, and mobile spitters.
Yup, it's largely been the same for me. Don't give a damn about multiplayer and am "whatever" on the graphics stuff. Hoping they get back to adding new gameplay content as I've pretty much lost interest in the title due to the lack of progress on that front.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by Larmantine »

FlowerChild wrote:
Marasambala wrote:I've been really frustrated that they've been so focused on multiplayer and graphics for the last six months. I just hope they have a bunch of unannounced features besides tanks, gates, and mobile spitters.
Yup, it's largely been the same for me. Don't give a damn about multiplayer and am "whatever" on the graphics stuff. Hoping they get back to adding new gameplay content as I've pretty much lost interest in the title due to the lack of progress on that front.
I suppose that eventually they will. I agree that it has been a long time since they added something to the progression. However, given that they have fairly large development team now, and recently got their hands on their own office, I'm pretty confident that the game will be great when it hits beta/full release.

A lot of waiting in gaming for me for the last year.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by MaxAstro »

For me at least, multiplayer is a huge selling point - in the same way that BTW or Terraria don't really hold my interest single player, being able to share Factorio with a friend pretty much guarantees I'll be putting a lot of hours into it, and convincing my friend to buy it ASAP.

Definitely prefer gameplay updates over graphic updates, though.
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Re: Factorio: A game all about automation

Post by DerAlex »

0.11.0 available for download

http://www.factorioforums.com/forum/vie ... f=3&t=6285


edit: and apparently it was taken down again

edit2: 0.11.1 is online :D
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