What is BWF?

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walker_boh_65
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What is BWF?

Post by walker_boh_65 »

FlowerChild wrote:with the Forge community now intent on ripping off BTW entirely with this BWF thing because I refuse to join them
What is this about? I don't remember seeing anything about forge trying to rip you off. (And I assume BWF is Better with Forge or something to the like?)

I split this off since it was very off topic for the thread it was in.

Not sure if this is really going to be a good discussion but since FC was the one who initially mentioned it I'm going to let it stand unless he decides he wants it locked.
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Sarudak
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Re: Why we need RTH now more then ever

Post by Sarudak »

walker_boh_65 wrote:What is this about? I don't remember seeing anything about forge trying to rip you off. (And I assume BWF is Better with Forge or something to the like?)
I tried googling it but couldn't find anything so your guess is as good as mine... *shrugs*
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Re: Why we need RTH now more then ever

Post by magikeh »

Sarudak wrote:
walker_boh_65 wrote:What is this about? I don't remember seeing anything about forge trying to rip you off. (And I assume BWF is Better with Forge or something to the like?)
I tried googling it but couldn't find anything so your guess is as good as mine... *shrugs*
Yes there is a modder out there that is working to get a version of BTW to work with forge,(so far it is very primitive) even if he/she is to re-write the entire mod themselves (Which seems to be happening) Also you guys need to hit up IRC sometimes, where the news it hot and the conversations are deep!

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mc_dunedin
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by mc_dunedin »

It's discussed briefly in the vMC Thread, starting here

There are links to videos, too.
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Yeah, if you've got seven hours:

http://www.twitch.tv/themattabase/b/346836818

I've only skipped through it, but it was enough to get an overall impression. Basically some member of the Forge community has decided to assume an alias and copy BTW wholesale (with their "own" code if you can call it that because they're directly reverse engineering my own source), while LexManos and other prominent members of the Forge community are acting as the public face of it and helping to promote it.

I'm sure Lex is also involved in the creation of hooks to support it given some of the stuff that was said during the video.

This is why I went to the Forge channel and went off on Lex the other night btw. I've never really liked the guy, and he doesn't like me, but this is obviously crossing a major line between us to have the current head of the Forge actively encouraging this kind of my behavior. The underlying message is a very clear "if you don't join us, we'll rip off your mod wholesale". They began that trend by ripping off ML when Risu refused to let them include it in the FTB mod-pack, and now they're apparently doing the same thing with me.

On the bright side, it looks like they only have somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% of it implemented (the easiest part), and it's buggy as shit, so it's unlikely to be a serious concern in the immediate future. By the time it's anywhere close to complete, I will likely be largely moved over to RTH anyways.

On principle though, it's pure scummery, and their rationale is entirely full of holes. They're basically saying that "We're not creative enough to come up with our own mod of this quality, and we like your stuff so much, that we want you to stop continuing to make it". That's obviously not going to happen anyways, but at best it's an extreme case of "cut off your nose to spite your face".

And BTW: that's why I've been relatively quiet the past couple of days. I'm pretty pissed off at the moment, although I'm beginning to return to normal today.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by destineternel »

and the fact there is half a dozen lurkers in the irc channel that joined during the drama and I know one of them for sure plays on forgecraft.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Oh, one additional point: I'm finding extremely interesting that FTB is basically promoting itself as "Technic with permission", but while they ask permission, they're not willing to take no for an answer, thus it's an entirely token gesture.

It's more "Technic where we ask you for permission...or else".

I found it rather amusing actually, as CheapShot of Technic posted something the other day about how the Technic and Forge community now represent the same overall philosophy, and while him and I disagree on whether the end result is good or bad, it was the first time that I can remember a statement coming from one of the people involved with Technic that I agree with.

The underlying philosophy that Lex and crew are now espousing is pretty much identical to that of Technic, while they continue to denounce it. I've got to at least give credit to Technic there, that while I don't agree with them, they at least aren't hypocrites about it.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by destineternel »

Well kaker did make an appearance that night in irc.
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Sarudak
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Sarudak »

FlowerChild wrote:Oh, one additional point: I'm finding extremely interesting that FTB is basically promoting itself as "Technic with permission", but while they ask permission, they're not willing to take no for an answer, thus it's an entirely token gesture.
I have not seen this anywhere. Is there any evidence of this that they are somehow coercing modmakers into being part of their modpack? Or including mods without permission?
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:I have not seen this anywhere. Is there any evidence of this that they are somehow coercing modmakers into being part of their modpack? Or including mods without permission?
The evidence is what they're doing with both ModLoader and BTW man. Basically, the two people that have said "no" to redistribution of their mods within FTB have had, or are in the process of having, their functionality duplicated as a result.

So no, they aren't distributing without permission. It's that if you don't give permission, then they copy your mod. That's why I say the underlying philosophy is identical to Technic. The methods are slightly different, and have a friendlier public face towards modders, but the end result and overall ideology is effectively the same.

BTW: People present on IRC at the time are probably already aware of this, but SlowPoke was trying to court me to allow distribution of BTW within a BTW version of FTB a few weeks ago, and I assume that was within the context of an overall attempt to court me back into the Forge community.

I don't think it's coincidental that after my refusal, this pops up a few weeks later, nor do I think it coincidental that SlowPoke himself popped up so rapidly once I joined the Forge channel the other night. I think it's fairly obvious that he's involved in this as well.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by embirrim »

I was watching the stream, around 3 hours 30 mins in... Watch it if you want to understand what's going on. I find it slightly ridiculous.

Honestly, and I know this won't happen, but a lot of the stuff they were saying I would've loved that somebody was there to refute. Like you FC.
There was some casinodoug guy there, I have no idea who he was, he was saying some interesting things.
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Battlecat
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Battlecat »

There's a related conversation going on at the MCF right now.

The whole business frankly stinks. I honestly don't understand why their's this desire for "everything in one box".
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

embirrim wrote: There was some casinodoug guy there, I have no idea who he was, he was saying some interesting things.
Doug is an active member of the community, and is often present in the BTW IRC (he also pops up here as well from time to time). I very much appreciated the statements he made towards my defense during that stream.

Because yes, Lex was spewing a constant stream of bullshit about my history, motives, and the way the mod works. It was pure propaganda to make them look like the good guys in an extremely morally tenuous situation.
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Educated_Fool
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Educated_Fool »

God, this kind of bullshit again. Sorry to hear this Flower, don't let it get to you.
It's sad that the "peace" between BTW and forge has to be sacrificed like this just so the whiny masses can play with every mod at once.

I'm also surprised at Slowpokes/FTB's contribution to this. I have not really followed FTB development, only heard about it recently from my brother in law. So my impression was that it is, just as you said, a 'legal' alternative to technic. But hearing about this and reading a transcript of the "forgecraft-irc-conversation", I can only say that my trust in the Minecraft modding community has never been this low =(
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embirrim
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by embirrim »

FlowerChild wrote:Doug is an active member of the community, and is often present in the BTW IRC (he also pops up here as well from time to time). I very much appreciated the statements he made towards my defense during that stream.

Ah, I thought as much, I thought I'd seen him around here before.
They kept going on about how your code is bad ( I don't know who is who), and all in all seem to completely miss most of the mods point. Their discussion about water mechanics was just... Facepalm after facepalm.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Eriottosan »

Eurgh it sickens me some of the outrageous fictitious claims they make :/ I'm so sorry you have to go through yet more of this crap, FC :/.
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by BinoAl »

I suppose, at the very least, RTH (If done as a sequel) is the type of thing that's absolutely impossible to play with any other mods aside from utilities. Not only will it be insulated from mojang's additions, but slightly more insulated against things like this
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

BinoAl wrote:I suppose, at the very least, RTH (If done as a sequel) is the type of thing that's absolutely impossible to play with any other mods aside from utilities. Not only will it be insulated from mojang's additions, but slightly more insulated against things like this
Yup, that's exactly right. The design differences will be significant enough between MC and RTH, that playing it in combination with Forge mods will just make no sense whatsoever from a design standpoint, let alone a compatibility one.

RTH just won't function in a way that will work with existing vanilla-type blocks, nor will such blocks be coded in such a way as to behave in a way consistent with RTH.

It's really analogous to a mod for one game not working in another. It's not something people expect to happen.
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Sarudak
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Sarudak »

More hints! *scribbles*
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FlowerChild
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote: More hints! *scribbles*
If you say so :)

I don't think I've said anything there I haven't said before, but whatever floats your boat ;)
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Sarudak
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Sarudak »

You'd be surprised how much I can glean from enough off-handed comments. ;)

In fact I often find your offhanded comments more revealing than your intentional 'hints'
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Gareleus »

What just happened I saw Fc apologizing to the creator of the original thread for banning him and when I refreshed it was gone, why would someone delete that?

-Edit context of what I said and where it happened http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/159 ... lexmanos/-
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Sarudak
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Sarudak »

Indeed I thought that was very strange too...
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Gareleus »

I guess that the "Devil of Mc Modding" can't come across as apologizing to someone. Wouldn't fit with the propaganda. /speculation
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Sarudak
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Re: What is BWF?

Post by Sarudak »

If this indeed a case of mod partiality I hope it ends up getting dealt with by the site admins.
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